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Topic: McCarthy's Southern Works
Thread: Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.

Total messages for all days: 64

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	K. P. Kirves	4/24/1998
I know, of course, that infanticide is nothing new. But because of the media attention given to young parents killing their kids, the temptation is to throw one's hands up in a "the world's going to hell-in-a-handbasket" stance. But infanticide is no modern invention. Which brings me to my point about Outer Dark. It seems to me that McCarthy is very careful to employ elements of myth/fable in Outer Dark (the example that comes to me is the tinker as a gnome or magical dwarf). But the ending of the novel is far from the typical fable's end (i.e., happy). In fact, it puts me in mind of King Lear (a formulaic comedy, with a tragic end). The "three evil dudes" (as they were referred to here in an earlier discussion) seem also taken from mythic circumstance, a la, the witches from McBeth, or the suitors in King Lear, or the Magi for that matter. But, unlike the evildoers in typical myth, these three triumph, in a manner of speaking. The number 3 is the smallest number that the human psyche will conceive as a "set." A few other things.... Other myths explore the babe left in the woods. I'm thinking the Bible (in Moses, substitute river), the Brothers Grimm, and Shakespeare. But most of these stories end happily. The babe usually grows to be a king, prince, find a sister, or at least become reconciled to the family. In a kind of dark Carl Jung/Joseph Campbell sense, could these myths be a method of psychotherapy? Would a parent who had abandoned/killed their kids invent these kinds of tales to combat the sense of dread at the deed? Is Outer Dark McCarthy's response to these fables?

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Jean Ann Murphy	4/30/1998
K.P. "could these myths be some kind of psychotherapy . . . to combat the sense of dread at the deed?" Freud says they could. Far as infanticide goes, you're right. The world's been in a hell-bound handbasket pretty much since recorded history. 'Cept it's those inconvenient female babies more often left to the elements (happening today in rural china). In the case of Moses, he was left in the marshes in the hopes that someone would find him, and he would be spared the purge of first born sons ordered by (who was it that ordered that?) It's notable that Holme didn't kill or bury alive the infant, but just left him in the woods. I suspect it was more out of apathy and ignorance than compassion. There is a fable-like quality to Outer Dark, and it's heavy with archtypal symbols. Barges that cross rivers. Black "demonic" horses. Corpses in trees. Stampeding herds of swine like a plague or a sign from the Old Testament (or Homer). Boots in the various stages of a boot's lifespan. There's also considerable attention given to the description of hunger, and of lactating breasts. Is the novel McCarthy's own Oedipal complex sprung from his subconscious? Is his use of symbolism researched and premeditated, or is he subconsciously employing what we later call symbolism. His prose is awfully close to poetry for me to believe that the stuff doesn't just come out of him him sometimes purely because of how it looks and sounds to his ear. Earlier in the forum, some of us discussed the elements McCarthy borrows from the tragic form, and a bit about blindness, darkness and ignorance as they influences the paths characters take. I think, given the title, that the book explores the darkest impulses in human nature (incest, child murder) and maybe how close an average person may come in their lifetime to "crossing the line" of social vs. antisocial behavior. Although Holme was shadowed by the three evil dudes, he never came into direct contact with them until he crossed the river (replete with fearful, suicidal black horse). This "meeting the dark self" is foreshadowed on page 20, as a way of describing how footsteps in the woods abruptly disappeared "As if their maker had met in this forest some dark other self in chemistry with whom he had been fused traceless from the earth."

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Chip Arnold	5/1/1998
Don't underestimate Culla's potential for guilt. He is haunted by his deeds, and his failure to kill the child illustrates both his cowardice and his awareness of the enormity of his act. It's a mistake, I think, to buy into the idea that these characters have no moral awareness.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Anthony Michaels	5/1/1998
Jean Anne, Yours comments were thought provoking, as usual, and your mentioning of Culla's "meeting the dark self" and in the woods no less. I personally have been haunted by the passage in Suttree where he is wandering the hills in a state of mind some would call crazed, others heightened/enlightened, but in the middle of it he registers a concrete thought (dreamlike and supernatural in nature however) about meeting "some othersuttree" who seems just outside the range of his actual perception. His imagining such a meeting instills a sense of dread and fear in the wanderer. The section where Suttree is wandering deliriously through the mountains has close connections to the whole of Outer Dark for me. The general feels and tones of the two seem to grow in and out of each other in a strange sort of dance in my head.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Nell Sullivan	5/1/1998
Like Chip, I believe Culla has an acute awareness of guilt. When he leaves the child without burying it or killing it, I think he's trying to get someone else to take on the guilt (and responsibility). But in Dante's Inferno, there's a circle especially for the "neutrals" who do not commit evil, but also do not commit "good." Of course, Culla's already committed big sin in the act of incest, but he doesn't want the bloodguilt of killing the child. Note that it's the bearded one in the end who kills the chap. Culla just denies relationship, so on some level he can tell himself that his hands are clean. The same "neutrality" is seen at the end of the novel, where Culla thinks that someone should tell the blind man about the swamp, but he doesn't bother to tell the man himself.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Jean Ann Murphy	5/1/1998
Chip, I agree that "cowardice" is what's demonstrated by Culla in his choice of abandonment as opposed to outright dispatching of the infant. But "acute awareness of morality" vs. actions in any form of accordance with morality are different subjects for debate. Rinthy and Culla are perfectly aware of the amoral (or even just socially unacceptable) nature of their incestuousness and its resulting offspring, which is why each goes through pains in the novel to conceal it. Culla concealing the pregnancy from the Tinker, and then disposing of the infant. Rinthy trying to conceal as much of her story as possible throughout her journey, until the crone charms the details out of her. Is Culla "haunted by his deed"?? I thought he was only tracking his sister down to prevent her from exposing his felony, no? Confronted with his eyeless, suffering son in the end, no doubt Culla felt remorse at having not spared the boy the agony of his short life, but again I think his choice of abandonment as one of cowardice, not compassion. As Nell pointed out, he denies knowing the child even then, hoping to spare himself. Anthony, thanks for pointing out the othersuttree reference. Incidentally, I caught a Faulkner conference covered on CSPAN a few months back. Someone gave a paper on the themes of "Doubling and Incest" in Faulkner. All about twins, mirror identities and the Fisherking Legend. Sounds McCarthian.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Chip Arnold	5/4/1998
Jean Ann-- I would simply refer to his dream at the beginning of the book. Dreams in McCarthy often reflect the true feelings hidden in waking life. Culla prays to be cured, which reflects a deep awareness of his guilt and sin. And, no, I don't think he's looking for Rinthy at all. Nell Sullivan has written about this in her thesis, and I've covered some of the same ground in PERSPECTIVES. I think we diminish the tragedy by underestimating the awareness.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Jean Ann Murphy	5/4/1998
Chip. I simply referred to Culla's dream in the beginning of the book. So long as I've already mentioned Freud, I'd say McCarthy knows about the two functions dreams have, according to SF -- wish fulfillment and anxiety manifestation (the last is a paraphrase.) So Culla's "wish" in Freudian terms is to be cured. His "anxiety" centers on the wrath he knows society could turn on him were his "illness" revealed. Again, I'm not debating whether or not Culla and Rinthy suffer any compunction -- it's clear that they do. My original question was whether Culla merely left the infant to die (as opposed to hurring its death along in some way) out of ignorance and apathy, or was it a lame attempt at compassion. Was it in fact done with the hope that the infant would be found? Culla doesn't evince any relief when he discovers the infant HAS been found, does he? In fact, he's confounded. I'll go ya that it may have been a subconscious act of mercy. Nell, in the Inferno, don't the neutral people have to carry around a flag or banner for eternity because they never bothered to take one up in life? In the New Testament, Jesus is quoted as saying he prefers hot or cold to lukewarm -- I think it was the summation of a parable. Speaking of Jesus, Culla's dream certainly has its roots in stories he may have heard from the bible -- replete with lepers and the blind hoping to be healed.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Nell	5/4/1998
Jean Ann, I think the passage is something like, "you are neither hot nor cold, and I will spew you from my mouth." It reiterates the notion of exile that the title of the novel picks up from another biblical passage about being cast into the outer dark. (It's important to note that Rinthy was once guilty of sin, too, but her willingness to bear responsibility for her sin and the "chap" makes her recoupable (sp?)--everyone welcomes Rinthy; she's not cast out.)

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Jean Ann Murphy	5/5/1998
Nell, Exile. A good word. In fact, Culla (he who ought to be culled?) was compelled to exile his infant son. Casting out sinners? The irony here is that Jesus' claim to fame lay in NOT casting out the dregs of humanity. According to JC, Every soul was salvageable, repentence being the only requisite. Which is why, as you point out, Rinthy is accepted everywhere she goes. (Who's to say Culla isn't the perpetrator and Rinthy the victim anyway? Her characterization is certainly one of McCarthy's more sympathetic treatments of women.) Here's a passage that echoes Culla's dream, and presents the theme of inclusion of the sick or the outcast. "And who did Jesus love, friends? The lame the halt and the blind, that's who. Them is the ones scarred with God's mercy. Stricken with his love. Ever legless fool and old blind mess like you is a flower in the garden of God." The Reverend, p. 226

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	K. P. Kirves	5/7/1998
Jean Anne. Despite all the Christian references, I'm seeing the God of Outer Dark as the Old Testament one. Vengeful, wrathful. The same one who asked Abe to whack Isaac. I don't see very many Christian acts. And the store keeper's comment, "We're still Christians here," might suggest that Christianity was once present in this world, but no more. Which brings me to another point. The three evil dudes. Are they intended to be the instruments of God's judgement. I hate to read things in here, but supernatural ambiguity is prevalent in McCarthy (Holden, in particular, comes to mind). In the first episode where they appear, they seem full sprung from hell (although this isn't said literally, the imagery and associations are there). Their nakedness implies a newness to this world (a bad parallel, but similar to the beginning of the Terminator?). And I think they're very successful if that is their intent in the novel. Which is a more outright punishment? Killing Culla or providing him with the answer to his prayer in killing the child. and allowing him to live with it? The horrorific fashion in which he dies I suppose answers that question. Hmmmm.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Jean Ann Murphy	5/11/1998
KP, Is there a "God of Outer Dark"? Maybe you're inferring that the vengeful and wrathful actions of characters in the novel were ordained by a god. Given all our discussion of light in Blood Meridian and the motif of light and fire in western art as a symbol of divinity or the presence of god, do you suppose the definition of "the outer dark" is "where god isn't" ? Are the "grim triune" intended to be instruments of God's judgement? Here's a little irony in support of that notion. On page 129: "The old man took his shotgun and peered out through the warped glass of his small window. Three men mounted the steps and one tapped at the door. And who is there? A minister."

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	K.P.K.	5/11/1998
Jean Anne, Well spoken. And you darn tootin I think those actions were ordained by God. Perhaps I'm getting a little personal, but I can't believe there is a place where God isn't. Even by Her absence, He is present in a place, because She constructed it for the condemnation of His prisoners. I'm speculating, then, that the Outer Dark must be that place which is outside of the communion of (wo)men. but not necessarily God. Despite all their encounters, the Holme's never find a place of rest. Is the "grim triune" meant to keep them from finding one? Always on the outside of the human community? And if so, is this meant to be a commentary on the Sacrement of communion (oops, sorry. Lapsed into the New Testament there)?

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Jean Ann Murphy	5/11/1998
KP- You lost me there on the sacrament of communion. I guess the questions most of us ask is what the text shows, not what we believe. But our personal convictions and areas of expertise (from microbiology to biblical scholarship) lead us down some unique critical paths. But your point that "outer dark" may refer not necessarily to a place of GODlessness, but to a place of HUMANlessness is interesting. This supports Nell's earlier post about the notion of exhile, and of the book's title as a biblical reference to being "cast into the outer dark". The only place I noted the words "outer dark" in the text were at the top of page 129, setting the scene for the old man's disembowelment by the bearded one: "The two hounds rose howling from the porch with boar's hackles and walled eyes and descended into the outer dark." Which I understand to mean they abandoned the old man to his fate. The hounds, if you will, smelled evil afoot, and LEFT. I think McCarthy employs this detail, as he does in other works through the actions of animals, to convey the sheer malevolence of the "grim triune." You know the old horror cliche where the horse suddenly rears when old Drac crosses the street? I can't get into seeing characters in this novel, or in Blood Meridian as embodiments of god or the devil. I think Outer Dark must have sprung from McCarthy reading Light in August and greek tragedies, and that it's his southern gothic interpretation of the classical tragedy. Only,as someone pointed out earlier, there is no clear antagonist with the requisite noble features and tragic flaws. Just some ignorant, mean-spirited hilljacks and their innocent victims. I see the novel as a tragic commentary on ignorance. That ignornance is blindness and darkness. In case anyone reading is in the mood to just sit back and be wowed by McCarthy, I'll cite the following: The tinker in his burial tree was a wonder to the birds. The vultures that came by day to nose with their hooked beaks among his buttons and pockets like outrageous pets soon left him naked of his rags and flesh alike. Black mandrake sprang beneath the tree as it will where the seed of the hanged falls and in spring a new branch pierced his breast and flowered in a green boutonniere perennial beneath his yellow grin. He took the sparse winter snows upon what thatch of hair still clung to his dried skull and hunters that passed that way never chanced to see him brooding among his barren limbs. Until wind had tolled the tinker's bones and seasons loosed them one by one to the ground below and alone his bleached and weathered brisket hung in that lonesome wood like a bone birdcage. p. 238.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	K.P.K.	5/12/1998
Jean Anne, I guess what I was working for was an ironic use of communion--that is, not totally as in communion with God, but commingling with the community. No matter. Might of been a bit of a reach there. And there is another reference to the "outer dark" where the words are used. I don't have the book in front of me, but in a late passage when Rinthy is leaving the "loveless house" she creeps into the "outer dark." I'll get back with you on a page number. I do think that it lends itself well to the supposition that the Outer Dark is a place (places?) where the exiled are shut out from the light of community. But I disagree that there is no redeeming quality in the characters. Rinthy has a strong maternal instinct. And I find Culla at least partially redeemed by his earnest work ethic. McCarthy always celebrates those in forgotten trades, or, similar to Norman Maclean, those who work with their hands. My reaction (or revulsion) over Culla (or maybe just the "act") was softened by his work ethic.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	K.P.K.	5/12/1998
The above mentioned reference of "the outer dark" in Outer Dark appears on page 211: "And she waited again at the front door with it open, poised between the maw of the dead and the loveless house and the outer dark like a frail theif."

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Russ	9/13/1999
I just finished Outer Dark and I was somewhat surprised. All I had known about the book prior to yesterday was the horrible scene of the infanticide. Seems very nihilistic standing by itself. But I don't see Outer Dark as nihilistic at all. It is an allegorical tale of good and evil that could have come straight from the Bible (and in fact borrows many of its symbols as pointed out in this thread and others.) And many stories from the Bible are every bit as macabre and bloody. The wild swine running headlong off the cliff comes straight form the Gospels. In any event, I wholeheartedly agree with the prior posts on this thread that Culla is consumed by guilt. Others have commented on the similarity between Holden and the "the evil dudes" as they are referred to in another thread. But I also notice a similarity bwtween Culla and the Kid from Blood Meridian: Culla passively observing--or trying to avoid any responsibility for--the evil around him. The brother of the swineherd accuses Culla of failing to reach out and save his brother as the herd swept past--and I agreed with the accusing brother. And there was some dialogue (I can't remember the specifics) where Culla tells one of his hosts along the way that he (the host) should take care of something that Culla could have fixed. That's terribly vague I know but I don't have the text with me. The "three evil dudes" (as they are described in another thread) tormented him, followed him, as Holden did the kid. I would like to footnote my prior posts on the violence threads to indicate that the infanticide scene fit within the whole quite effectively--in spite of its gore. This book was an allegorical tale of apocalyptic barbarism, a shadow of evil and death that followed Culla as an outward manifestation of his guilt. The fevered nightmare of a baby killer, which is what Culla believes he is.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Greg S.	9/14/1999
Russ, I see I am standing almost alone now with my complaint (almost like Job, I might add gleefully). My Shorter Oxford defines nihilism as the "[t]otal rejection of current religious beliefs or moral principles, often involving a general sense of despair and the belief that life is devoid of meaning." Now, I can't begin to speculate on what McCarthy's attitude towards religion was back then, but I like to think that the man who wrote Suttree and The Crossing also was probing the moral issues that concerned him in Outer Dark. Nevertheless, I have to scratch my head when a book culminates with an infanticide the likes of the one McCarthy depicts and then ends with what Nell describes as "neutrality", "where Culla thinks that someone should tell the blind man about the swamp, but he doesn't bother to tell the man himself." Where is the hope in Outer Dark? Even the kid makes a stand in Blood Meridian and pays for it with his life. He not only suffers from guilt, he repents (even if subsequent actions are of little effect.) If critics seek to make Culla's alleged guilt feelings the central theme of the novel, then they need to follow through and discuss whether there is any development in the character. Is simply having guilt feelings enough? Is simply borrowing from biblical sources enough to make a moral tale? (Thanks for that one John V. wherever you are.) To me, Culla is no different at the end. Guilt complex or none, he is unrepentant. This fosters despair, which is closely related to nihilism. Isn't Outer Dark an acknowledgment that the child's life was of no significance? Wasn't it just a prop that the author sensuously mutilated and then disposed of? Others talk about tragedy. Where is the tragedy? I don't see the classic elements of tragedy here. What positive elements does Culla incorporate? I am taking an extreme stance here to provoke debate. Nell is still working on her answer (which she no doubt intends to publish). I hope that my second read of Outer Dark will leave me feeling as comfy with the infanticide as you now appear to be. I submit that you've simply become inured to the violence after reading and discussing it here. That's what happened to me. By the time I got to Blood Meridian I had my defenses up. Do you no longer find the idiot's drinking from the "bleeding smile" on the baby's throat offensive? Overly sensuous? Are you saying that it is aesthetically necessary to the effect of the novel? Beautiful?

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Nell	9/14/1999
Greg and Russ, First, I'm glad Russ finally finished reading a novel he had previously dimissed because of negative buzz. Second, Greg, aren't you ignoring the character Rinthy completely when you call the novel "nihilistic"? Not to get on the feminist soapbox again (as if I were ever off it), but you boys have a really bad tendency to ignore the feminine in the McCarthy canon. For every failure of Culla's to accept responsibility in the novel, there is an acceptance by Rinthy of that same responsibility. What about that? Is her presence really so negligible that you could say Culla defines the morality posited by the book? Dianne Luce told me a great story in Boone. She was corresponding with McCarthy at one point about an essay she was writing, and at a place in her ms. where she referred to Culla as the one "the main character" of OD, McCarthy had written in the margin, "Don't you mean two main characters?" (This is paraphrase from memory, but the gist is there.) So don't ignore Rinthy, or the moral/life force she represents. I think it was Dianne who pointed out that Rinthy is short for "Corinthians," and the most memorable verse from I Corinthians is, of course, I Corinthians 13: "...and the greatest of these is love."

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Greg S.	9/14/1999
Nell, somehow I knew that's where you or others would head with this. I simply took over from prior postings on this thread the "Culla as main character" idea. You'll notice from my formulation "If critics seek ..." that I implicitly acknowledge that there are other ways to look at it. Damnit, you let these guys off the hook before I had a chance to grill them properly. I still think that you need to deal with Culla's apparent lack of change and the horrible ending that does result in the death of Rinthy's child if you are going to try to paste a hopeful ending onto what struck me at first read as an utterly dark work. It is so nice to see the critic who publicly used the term "misogyny" to describe McCarthy's female characterizations come to his defense in such a way. Have you had a change of heart or something?

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Russ	9/14/1999
Greg. S, I'm still with you on this one. Yes, I suppose I've become somewhat inured to that ghastly scene, and I still believe it is excessive and is portrayed sensuously--unfortunately in my view. It's as if McCarthy got carried away with his own creative urges. My surprise is that the book is so much more than just that scene. On the issue of nihilism, I agree with Nell. Rinthy is a wonderful character--a good person who is treated well on her journeys by the strangers she encounters as Arnold's precis indicates. She is McCarhty's most sympathetic female character, a moral being who's only fault would be her incest at a relatively older age (which leaves her few excuses.) The contrast between Culla and Rinthy makes the novel a morality tale of sorts. Nope, Culla never repents and is awful throughout. (Thanks for the textual example of Culla's not telling the blind man about the quagmire--I just couldn't remember it when I posted my entry above.) And the Kid from Blood Meridian does grow from a youngster who gouges out the eye of a bartender who refuses to give him a drink into an older man who rushes to help a woman (one of McCarthy's ubiquitous crones)only to find her long since dead. Culla never changes, as did the kid, and stays a totally selfish coward. Rinthy on the other hand is different and has heart. If you are like Culla, life is indeed meaningless--he has no idea where he is going; whereas Rinthy has a concrete purpose and knows what she wants. (Nope, Nell didn't let us off the hook--the "Rinthy" idea occurred to me before her post.) Greg, S., I also agree with your observation of Nell's apparent inconsistency regarding McCarthy's alleged misogyny. I am glad you brought that up. I hope she responds.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Greg S.	9/14/1999
Russ, I'm relieved by your post. I'm glad that I didn't scare you off from reading the rest of McCarthy's oeuvre. To be honest, I'm being a bit bold attacking him for something in a book that I've only read once. I (almost) look forward to the second read. As for Nell, I didn't point that out to put her on the defensive but to point out her general sense of fairness. I'll bet money she hasn't softened her stance on Suttree one bit. Or?

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Nell	9/14/1999
Russ and Greg S., I'm not sure how arguing that Rinthy matters constitutes an inconsistency in my reasoning. (Could you elaborate, please?) The inconsistency that I readily admit to is co-existence of the pleasure I take in McCarthy's narrative representation of violence and my own "suspiciousness" (for lack of a better term) of McCarthy's narrative treatment of women. I am always careful to use the term "narrative misogyny" because I only know the narratives, not the real human being who writes them. Greg, I know you haven't fully recovered from the shock of the "Billy Bleeds" essay, so I won't accost you with my essay about the transition between OD and Child of God being the crystallization of the dead girlfriend motif. At any rate, a lot can happen to a man in 30 years (1968-1998) to explain why his narrative representation of women would become increasingly problematic, even hostile. (Rick has a theory about a girl named Susie who probably dumped McCarthy in college.) Although Rinthy is a strong character, she is relatively early in McCarthy's canon. The women in the next novel (Child of God) are all dead. Elsewhere, Russ offered Sarah Borginnes from BM as an example of a laudable woman in McCarthia. Can you think of any others? Gee, I can't either. Maybe Martha in Gardener's Son, which isn't really McCarthy's material, after all. He just wrote the teleplay. So that leaves Rinthy and Sarah B, and Sarah B is undermined immediately when the Judge appropriates her idiot. Hmmm... Also, where did I say the ending of OD was "hopeful"? If I did, I recant. McCarthy pulls an O'Connor in OD--he's interested in the question of salvation without showing anyone being saved. Culla seems to me to be arrested in his spiritual development. Guilt, sure, but no acceptance of responsibility. If O'Connor's Wiseblood had ended in the moment when the cop pushes Haze Mote's car over the cliff, then you'd have another version of Culla at the end of McCarthy's novel. But that narrative continues, while OD is suspended.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/14/1999
Nell -- Just off the top of my head I offer the following list in answer to your question. You didn't say major, right? And why should whether they are flawed or not or alive or not by novel's end matter? Plenty of laudable or at least sympathetic men certainly die in McCarthy novels, including heroes. Plenty of laudable men are somehow also ambiguously flawed, depending on one's perspective, in McCarthy's novels, including heroes. What the feminine characters on the list are laudable for depends on one's perspective and would take much longer to explain, so if you don't mind, I'll save myself some time and rather wait to defend only the choices with which you disagree. Please take your time, because I won't be able to reply back immediately anyway. - Rinthy - Suttree's mother - Suttree's Aunt Martha - Doll Jones - Josie Harrogate - every whore in Suttree - Kathy the nurse - Aunt Alice McKellar - Sarah Borginnes - Luisa - the Duena Alfonsa - Alejandra - Jane Ellen Sanders - the old trapper's woman - The old woman with the damaged eye and the jovencita outside Cajon Bonita that talk to Billy about the wolf - The girl from Namiquipa that Boyd saved from being raped - Senora Munoz at the Hacienda de San Diego - La primadonna of the traveling gypsy opera company - The wife of the man who had his eyes sucked out by Wirtz, the German huerista - The woman outside the town of Janos who read his palm - Magdalena - Betty

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	John C.	9/14/1999
I tend to think that Billy Parham should be viewed as an exploration of the author's "feminine" concerns. Not, of course, the concerns which are held to be typically feminine, or feminist, e.g., issues of power and the usurpation of power positions, but rather concerns which touch more upon biological aspects of feminity, like a maternal concern for nature, perhaps, which Billy exhibits in the first part of The Crossing. From this perspective, the entire novel The Crossing seems something of an antidote for the testosterone-dripping pages of Blood Meridian and the overtly masculine heroism of John Grady Cole. Of course this speaks nothing of Outer Dark...

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Nell	9/14/1999
No name, I'll answer in greater detail tomorrow (or when I reread Suttree, since Aunt Martha and Aunt Alice conflate in my memory, so that may really be months from now, since I have 3 stacks of papers to grade), but in the mean time, re: "- every whore in Suttree," let me just ask you how a woman who is known simply as "a whore" can then be "laudable." If whoredom is not a profession that you'd like your daughter/sister/mother to pursue, then can you really "admire" a whore? Her only identity is as a sexual object of exchange. Ditto Alejandra, although the medium of exchange is not cash but power since she's a daughter to be properly married off. And Duena Alfonsa, how is she laudable? She's only furthering the partriarchal interests of her brother, even though she tells John that she wants more for Alejandra than was available to her as a young girl. She's not thinking about Alejandra. The traffic in women is rampant. Greg Hyduke somewhere tried to say that Mother She was somehow proof the McCarthy depicted women faithfully. Man, oh man, and I mean "man." How many African American women read McCarthy, do you think? Why so few? Is Mother She a faithful depiction of African American femininity? Or just a man's negative fantasy? Isn't she in fact a terrible insult? "The old trapper's woman"--hey, not even a name to her name? Only an object of possession? Anonymity breeds contempt. Need I say more? Yes? well, what does she do other than glare at Billy and yell back to the old man? Now Doll Jones (married to Ab, right?) maybe. But "Doll" as a name? What does that imply? I'd have to reread. And Luisa, yeah, you've got me there. Jose Limon has already done a nice job of defending her characterization. But "Kathy the nurse"--fodder for Suttree's fantasies. How is she laudable? She's a total walk-on. It's Jim Long (J-Bone) and the anonymous "water boy" who really facilitate Sut's healing. Betty gets to tell Billy who he is. How is she laudable? What can you tell me about her as an individual? She gets a few lines of dialogue. She's the mirror assuaging Billy's second infancy. And MAGDALENA? Don't even get me started. Now, why is John Grady absolutely one-hundred-percent physically normal (save a small facial scar, contracted in a manly knife fight) and Magdalena has to be epileptic, an epileptic whore? Not even a very bright one. ("Yeah, I don't know you but I'll ride in your cab, even though I know Eduardo is going to kill me.") Where's the parity? She's absolutely marked for death. The only reason John Grady wants her so badly is that he knows Eduardo wants her. Why didn't he just sneak her over the border? Why didn't he just marry her in daylight without fanfare and bring her over the border as his wife? In the mid-1950s, that would have been totally possible and pretty easy, especially since the Grady and the Cole families had considerable influence. John Grady won't even ask his mother for help. Why? Because Magdalena is not the point for John Grady. Magdalena's every bit as much a bone of contention as Alejandra was. She's physically beautiful, yes, but is that really progress for women in McCarthia? Is beauty the only virtue/value women are allowed? Where does that leave ugly old crones like me? And what does Mag's beauty ultimately get her, other than a couple of lurid photo ops? Mr. Doe, maybe it would simplify things if you explained how all these walk-ons are laudable to you. I can't read your mind, so maybe you see something I'm blind to. Then again, some has two eyes and still caint see. To me, it seems you've simply given a list of women who just happen to be in the novels. (Are you saying that just being represented in a novel is an honor? I don't want to misunderstand you.) And I already admitted Rinthy and Sarah B in my post above. Seriously, please enlighten me, kind sir.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Greg S.	9/15/1999
It is comforting in this constantly changing world to know that some things remain stable. Nell, I didn't use the word inconsistency. Given what I know about your ideas I sort of assumed (was even willing to bet money) that Rinthy was one of the exceptions in your list of complaints against McCarthy. I look forward to the dead girlfriend article. Btw, many of the male characters also don't have names, and I'd never think to look at that as a sign of contempt or as an invitation to despise one of those characters. I don't recall accusing you of calling the ending of OD hopeful. I was just pointing out the connection between lack of hope/despair and nihilism.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/15/1999
Instead of 'nature is violent' , with all the religious references that people have sited in Outer Dark couldnt this be another demonstration that the novels display that really...'religion is violent' or rather 'religion condones violence' ?? Also, you could take the word violence in all these posts and relace it with peaceful...and they would still be insightful.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Greg S.	9/15/1999
Well, I guess I did use the term "tacking on a hopeful ending". You know what I mean: giving a hopeful slant to the novel.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/15/1999
Nell, How can I say this politely? I find your comments about Mother She, the duena Alfonsa, the whores on the Flats, Alejandra, Magdalena, and the nickname "Doll" to reveal a lack of objectivity and instead project the ideological views of an American woman in 1999 onto female characters living in a much different time and place and culture. I guess you would've preferred McCarthy to redeem them or uplift them or make them more intelligent or get them out of the flophouses or have them reject old ways or give them names that do not objectify themselves according to some socioeconomic theory, instead of portraying them realistically, not all of which is negative, and I refuse to even respect that with an argument. You might be used to that kind of thinking, which I understand is very popular in today's academic environment, but it is unacceptable to me. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I prefer to bow out there, since we have no basis to argue. I'll save you some time on Suttree's Aunts. Aunt Martha is the one who feeds him and gives him a glass of lemonade at her home, and they go through an old family photo album together. Aunt Alice is the one in the "madhouse" who shares some illuminating childhood memories about his family with him. Both are sweet and honest. The woman that is voluntarily taking care of the old trapper is by her own admission not related to him at all. Her bitter edge and caustic comments try to mask her devotion to him, but they cannot. Kathy the nurse provides a counterpart to the priest at the hospital. In addition to her physically attractive feminine attributes, she has a gum-popping vitality. Earthy, easy-going, good-natured, talkative, forthright, and completely un-pretentious, she gets a rise out of him in more ways than one. Betty has a heart of gold when she has every reason not to. She is every plain hard-working woman with some children to raise, no husband around, that still has the fortitude to smile and forgive and be gracious and take in an old bum. She is the woman of the respectful "Yes mam" that closes the trilogy, arguably his greatest work to date. Josie Harrogate comes looking for her brother at the end of the novel. She cares. Jane Ellen has implied sway over her gruff wise-cracking rancher husband, as is usually the case, and provides care to both Billy and the loba. When Billy, Boyd, and the girl encounter "the Munoz woman," she takes them into her home and into her heart and into her familia, off and on, for the remainder of the book.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/15/1999
Nell, In concentrating on the list (I see that I skipped a few - let me know if you want to discuss them), I failed to comment on your "walk-on" remark. First of all, there are plenty of characters, male and female, who appear and disappear never to be seen again, which I find natural and functional (for reasons that don't have anything to do with this thread) in Suttree or a trilogy of tragic journeys and quests. Most of them are critical, none of them are throw-away scenes. Secondly, McCarthy's works are admittedly very masculine to begin with. He appears to me to be concentrating on, among other things, what it means to be a dis-integrated American male in the last part of this century. While not precluding women, this concentration does remove the focus from women. I guess I'm off the topic of the thread here. Sorry.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Nell	9/15/1999
John C., I agree about Billy. I have also claimed that Billy is more feminine than masculine. I actually like Billy as a character, except for the first few pages of COTP, where he slips into hyper-masculine mode. But even that performance is shown to be laced with despair, as if even Billy didn't believe it. Mr. No Name, Thanks for the clarifications, such as they are, but unless you're a woman (and I can tell that you are not), how can you "objectively" say that McCarthy's women are realistic? Aren't you really saying his fantasies match your own? Why are most of McCarthy's women (the ones who get more than two pages of narrative space, anyway) either dead, crazy, or whores? Are those the only women he knows in real life? I find that hard to believe. I wasn't alive in the 1950s, but I betcha that even then, being a whore was about the lowest possible social position. How many whores did your dad invite home for Thanksgiving dinner with the family? How many characters on Father Knows Best where prostitutes? None? You'd think that such a "laudable" mode of existence would be held up for the Eisenhower-era family. Why didn't McCarthy, for example, develop the characterization of Suttree's spurned wife? I don't think my concern over the objectification of women as sexual objects and toys ("Doll"--see COG) is a projection of 1990s feminist paranoia (as you have characterized it). I'll reiterate: while many readers would love their baby boys to turn into John Grady-esque cowboys, none would wish their baby girls to turn out like Magdalena, Joyce, Mother She, or any of Lester's girls. McCarthy offers male-ideals and female-abjects. BTW, Betty does have a husband. Remember? He buys his kids a horse, whom the young girl loves and talks to. Betty's got two healthy kids, a husband, and a piece of land. Yeah, her generosity is great, possibly an overflow of the bounty she experiences ("Thank you God! I'm a woman in a McCarthy novel and I'm not dead! And I'm not a whore! And I'm sane! Hallelujah, it's a miracle! I'm saved"), but again, what can you tell me about her? What you've tried to tell me doesn't jive with what we know from the narrative. She's not a single mom, and how have you deduced she's "plain"? Is that a projection from the erroneous supposition that some guy left her (so she must not be attractive?). Objectivity is an important concept, though, that I'd really like to commend to you. I have found that as soon as I am recognized as a woman on the forum, everything I say is dismissed, unless some guy reiterates it in different form. If you really want to prove yourself objective, no name, refute the claims. Don't do the argument ad feminine thang. If you weren't so short-winded, I'd assume you were none other than the Hi duke himself. But Greg H. would at least substantiate his views instead of merely saying, "Oh, what you say doesn't matter, because you're only a female academic. Therefore, I don't need to address your objections." Yes, I confess, it's hard to be an objective woman when reading McCarthy. All the images that are supposed to represent me and my kind are distorted. Abject. Or so fleeting or ghostly that they seem nonexistent. Don't worry. You're bowing out is merely consistent with your desire to remain anonymous and therefore exculpated, kindly like Culla. ;-)

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/15/1999
Nell, Your post has only proven my point. I only need to be as objective as the framework he creates allows, and the women McCarthy knows in real life have no bearing whatsoever on the topic as far as I am concerned. As far as I know, the Flats in 1954 wasn't anything like "Pleasantville" (funny and yet searing parody, if not a little sentimental and political for me) or the set of "Father Know Best," so why would a black witch on the Flats need to represent African-American femininity rather than a black witch on the Flats (who happens to serve a function and hold a position of begrudging respect from the community there)? You see where I am coming from? What would you have her be instead? Barbara Jordan? (And btw, would you care to define "African-American femininity" for me so that I can see if the black women I know agree with your acceptable definition of the femininity of their group? Or is there someplace I can look that up?) Likewise, why should the whores - who are some of the most well-off and well-adjusted people on the Flats, by the way, tough, independent, have not lost their sense of humor, and have the only warm places to sleep in winter - be portrayed like June Cleaver instead of what they are, whores. Remember the whores in Cannery Row, at Dora's? Steinbeck did the same thing with them. Represented them for what they were and their place within the community. Wouldn't you expect a woman like Doll Jones that ran a place like hers, married to a guy like Ab, to be called "Doll?" If it is not an issue with her, as portrayed by McCarthy, why do you project a current ideology against such a nickname, a common endearment in the 50s, onto the text? And what exactly did you wish the duena to do? Be some kind of un-realistic heroine? Spurn her brother and thousands of years of patriarchy and Mexican culture so that we could have a happy ending? You think JGC is what she has in mind as something better for Alejandra? As I suspected, none of this strikes you as ideological intervention - so why don't we just forget it? My bowing out had nothing to do with not having a substantial argument, just a lack of desire to argue, because it can only lead to one place. Rancor. My reply was respectful but honest. I leave it at that. I do not dismiss what you have said because you are a woman, Nell. I dismiss what you have said because I find that it blatantly projects your ideological desires onto a perfectly realistic text. Unless you're a black witch, a rich manipulative Mexican aunt with a firm hand on a big ranch, a whore, or the wife of a recalcitrant black man with a grievance against cops running a burger joint on the Flats, McCarthy is not representing you or your kind. Thanks for correcting me about Betty's marital status (you'll recall that I said it was off the tiop of my head, sorry). ("Plain" had nothing to do with physical appeal, and was not a negative connotation. I think McCarthy chose the name and the way he describes her to make her as average or everyday and as wholesome as possible. I think it's important that she is not someone extraordinary.) Very clever 'culling' that verb out of the lexicon about "Culla." I had not thought of that symbolic meaning before.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Russ	9/15/1999
I have certainly enjoyed this discussion. I'm not sure with whom I agree or disagree, and I think all of the above posts raise intersting points. First, I would have to echo Greg S.'s concern about criticizing Outer Dark, having only read it once. I am now more aware than ever of McCarthy's great skill and my own inability to edit his work. Greg, I certainly don't want to condone infanticide--or admit "the scene" is artistically appealing--but I'd be hard pressed to say exactly how it should be revised. The thought of the idiot quivering in anticipation of drinking the infant's blood is one that is hard to forget. On the violence thread, I thought I had placed No name in the horrible box of either justifying that scene as beautiful or admitting McCarthy went over the edge. But I am now conflicted, feeling horrified at the grisly killing of the infant yet admiring the book as a whole. Nell's jouissance theory is hitting pretty close to home with me. On the issue of women characters, I would like to agree with No Name because I don't want to think of the work (if not the author) as misogynistic. (No Name, did you mention Boyd's girlfriend in your list? I liked her a lot too.) Yet, I think any attempt to say that McCarthy portrays women favorably would be strained. Suttree's moments of sexual abandon occur with an unnamed prostitute who is a pyscho chick. Not too favorable, not too life affirming, not too romantic or loving. Nell points out that the delicate, beautiful relationship with Wanda ends in an avalanche of rock. And the one image of female sexuality from Suttree that lingers more than the rest, that McCarhty so lovingly created as Greg S. might say, is that of the old witch who drugs him towards the end. In one sentence, I read the words pudendum, virid, and merkin, and I had no clue what any of them meant. I looked all of them up and now I cannot forget. When combined with the image of small serrated teeth (which also appears in the same sentence) the vision is hellish, every man's most feared nightmare. I mentally compared that description of female genitalia with Ed Rickett's in Steinbeck's Cannery Row. He commented that all women were not alike and that there was a remarkable variation that he was quite happy to explore. Perhaps not too chivalrous but certainly appreciative. No name, I agree with Nell on the women characters from ATPH. The duena is a bitch and Alejandra is on the cold side. Both are strong characters, however. And ATPH is McCarthy's only sustained romantic story. Yet, I remain deeply concerned about the relative absence of any sustained discussion of human sexuality, or of any meaningful or at least significant sexual relationships, or of any kind of relationships at all, with women. The women often seem to be in the background, and when they take the spotlight they are shrews or bitches--except of course Rinthy. The lack of sexuality in McCarthy's work is a glaring deficiency to the extent he seeks (or his work seeks) to describe the truths of our world. Human sexuality ia an essential part of "the Truth" about us as people. That McCarthy's work seems much more comfortable describing violence than sex is very disturbing. I keep remembering the NY times article where he talks about the deadly sting of a certain kind of bug and the need for or inevitablity of violence. Whatever happened to being a lover rather than a fighter? Nell, I don't share your assessment of John Grady. He strikes me as a very realistic portrayal of a love-sick young man. Magdalena is not a trophy to be won from the pimp, but someone whom he wants to bring back to the new home he is building. Yes, John Grady does a lot of foolish things, including becoming romantically involved with a prostitute in the first place, yet he seems motivated by a sincere desire to have a fairly tale ending with the woman who has captured his heart (among other things.) Is John Grady the college-aged McCarthy who loses at love? If so, that would explain why Magdalena must die.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Russ	9/15/1999
My last post crossed with the two that come just before it. My post was referring to the prior posts, not the last two by No Name and Nell.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/15/1999
Russ, I didn't strain at all to type my list. I could probably find more if I thought about it awhile. What would you have the duena be? She's supposed to be a bitch, and I admire the ancient poise and grace and stricture and polish with which she carries it off. You think she's going to let some two-bit Americano run off with her brother's beautiful daughter? From whose perspective are you reading her? Were you cheering for JGC? Her name is Joyce. (Suttree's psycho chick or "queen of fck" or was it "witch of fck?") Is she any more psycho than Suttree? So she goes into a tailspin and kicks out a windshield. Suttree rightfully walks away from her. Isn't he a destructive personality? Okay, he gets better. He learns from it. He better. IT'S HIS STORY! We don't know what happens to Joyce. Maybe she'll find somebody a little more Christ-like (wasn't that you?) to help pull her out of it. I'm not convinced the entire Mother She succubus scene isn't Suttree's nightmare, by the way, but it works either way for me. Here's this old crone raping a ladies man who half the whores and Trippin Through The Dew would just love to get their hands on.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Nell the alleged ideologue	9/15/1999
No name, I don't want to be too rancorous, but could I point out a blind spot in your argument, please? You've accused me of wanting to project my own ideology on the texts. Fair enough. But can't you see how your own masculinist bias informs your view of the texts as "realistic"? In what way, precisely, is Cities "realistic"? Bad Mexican pimp vs. Good Gringo cowboy, with the yaller rose of the border town in contention. I'm terribly sorry, but please do ask your African American women friends to read the Mother She nightmare sequence. Ask them what they think. Ask them if they aren't made uncomfortable by what seems to be a pandering use of stereotypes. Ask them if they aren't made uncomfortable by your inability to see where this characterization is problematic. Ask your Mexican women friends why Magdalena might be considered problematic. Ask me why Joyce, Wanda, Grace, Lester's girls, Mrs. Rattner, Mrs. Cole, are problematic. "Unless you're a black witch, a rich manipulative Mexican aunt with a firm hand on a big ranch, a whore, or the wife of a recalcitrant black man with a grievance against cops running a burger joint on the Flats, McCarthy is not representing you or your kind." But in a previous post, you suggested that McCarthy was representing fragmented modern masculinity in Suttree. If the men are representative, then how can we be sure the women aren't supposed to be, as well?

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/15/1999
Russ -- Yes, Boyd the guerito's girlfriend is on the list and I liked her an awful lot too. (" - The girl from Namiquipa that Boyd saved from being raped")

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/15/1999
Nell, It was a rheotrical question and we're just repeating ourselves. The people I associate with try to keep an open mind, or I wouldn't associate with them. Re Cities, if you read my post on the 'Violence III' thread you'll see that I had a read that was anything but that which you stereotypically summarize. I never said anything about fragmented masculinity. I said men who felt "dis-integrated" from the rest of society, the modern world.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Too	9/15/1999
Russ, Cormac writes of a time when sustained discussions of sexuality didn't exist. Would you rather he pursue anachronisms? And I don't mean the Macbeth gunpowder variety. Nell, Since you ask us to admit that we male readers--some of us at least--lack the objectivity to understand McCarthy's treatment of women, would you consider admitting to your own political agenda? Is your primary work effort--at least in terms of publishing in academia--focused on a sustained feminist critique of McCarthy? A simple yes or no answer will be sufficient.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Nell	9/15/1999
Dear Too: No--And since you are not a prosecuting attorney, I think I'll elaborate to prove you wrong in your assumptions: I have a gender-neutral Master's Thesis on McCarthy pretentiously entitled "Grace and Apocalypse in the Novels of Cormac McCarthy"(1989), and gender-neutral reading of textual jouissance available in Sacred Violence. I have a dissertation (1995) on Race entitled "Missing Persons: Race and Aphanisis in the Twentieth Century American Novel." I have a psychoanalytic reading of Joe Christmas in Mississippi Quarterly (1996) and one of Nella Larsen's Passing in African American Review (1998), neither of which deals with gender. I do, I'll admit, have one feminist essay on Eavan Boland in Colby Quarterly (1997). I am currently working on representations of poor whites in Southern Fiction. The essay on gender in the Border Trilogy, which should come out in 2000 if nothing bad happens, doesn't really focus on women, but on the desire between men. The Dead Girlfriends essay is under consideration. The feminist reading of McCarthy isn't my career, but something extremely personal and near and dear to me. It's not a career move, believe me. I teach at a University that doesn't care about publication, only teaching. I'm not cynical, so I don't write just to get published or to get tenure points, and unlike some people, I'm willing to put myself (and my name) on the line for my convictions. There are several men who contribute to the forum (like Rick and Russ and Greg S. and Adam and even sometimes, grudgingly, patronizingly, Hyduke, but only when the moon is full) who accept the fact that a woman might have some insights in McCarthy's texts. My political agenda: I wish more men would eschew assholedom. There's my narrative vita. Give me a name and an address, and I'll happily send you a hard copy of my CV so that you can scrutinize my credentials and try to find further evidence of my unworthiness to comment on McCarthy's novels. Unless, of course, the fact that I have ovaries is already proof enough for ye. Dear No Name: I find the anonymous postings on the Violence III thread really confusing. I don't know which ideas belong to whom. There are at least 3 people posting anonymously on that thread, so sorry, I tend to conflate you all. Maybe you could use a nom du keyboard just for convenience sake. But what a great lesson for us all on the ephemereality of namelessness. Tant pis.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/15/1999
Nell, (Je ne suis pas sur qui est plus mauvais, anonymat ou infamy.) Let me try another angle. Could it be possible, even slightly, for me to say the following about your opinion on this and have you agree? You don't really object to the accuracy or the reality of how McCarthy depicted a black witch on the Flats; a poor rather simple-minded naturalistic daughter of a brailer; a violent prostitute; a rich bitch of a Mexican aunt that protects the ranch's and family's history, name, and interests; etc, etc, so much as that you object to the fact that McCarthy seems to choose these sorts of characters to depict in the first place, instead of characters that would not be such a strain to find good qualities in, or said another way, characters that would not make it so hard to ignore any ideological perspectives from today might be too near and dear to you, characters such as Rinthy, Sarah B, and Luisa (the only women you have so far agreed were not abject), or Suttree's Aunts, Josie Harrogate, Jane Ellen Sanders, Boyd's girlfriend, and Senora Munoz (who I insist should also pass your not-abject meter requirements - although some are probably "walk-ons" to you). In other words - if I can presume to be creative, for a moment - it isn't that an old African-American voodoo woman on the Flats isn't realistic, a poor or abject depiction, or even that she doesn't belong in the story as told as a fuction of something McCarthy is trying to say about reality or religion or black magic or the Flats or Suttree; it's that there is no black woman of the same age who has a regular job in a factory or perhaps as a school teacher with a family in a less run-down part of town, etc, or something like that. And the proliferation of these sorts of feminine characters combined with the absence of more positive feminine characters leads you to the misogyny claim. If so, I would still disagree, on the basis that the stories he writes are not those sorts of stories, are not Tommy Hays or Wendell Berry, each of whom I read and admire in their own right, but both of whom are clearly not on the dark disturbing side of the fence. But - and this is a big but - we'd have more room to discuss.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Russ	9/15/1999
No Name, I want there to be more light than heat in this discussion. So I suppose I should start out with thanking you for pointing out the name of Suttree's prostitute girlfriend, Joyce. And, yes, that was me talking about Suttre being Christlike, which comment I made referring to his male buddies. I think I also provided a caveat for his delaings with girlfriends. But I don't fault him for leaving her. Re: the Duena. Yep, I was rootin' for the cowboy to win his girl, and think the duena was a bitter old women who loved to manipulate others. She was all about supporting social convention against sincere feeling--that's so anti-Suttree it seems obvious to me. Re: Nell as feminist and No name as anti-feminist. You both make valid points. Although I have not been a model of consistnecy in my views, I think I fall somewhere in the middle betweem your views. And No name, I agree with a lot of what Nell says, and I'm no feminist. But as I indicated I hope that you can convince us that McCarthy is not anti-woman because I love his work so much and want him to be without that blemish. Too, I'm not sure if I understand your remarks about the era of history the novels occur in. The violence is graphic, and so is the ugly sexuality of the old witch at the end of Suttree. I was looking for a more positive view of women and sexuality, a more extensive discussion of marriage and love and children, and not necessarily a pornographic potboiler. To kill someone else or witness violent death is a rare experience that most of us do not have (except for Adam who has spoken on this issue.) Issues about sex, love and relationships are far more pervasive and I would say more fundamental to us as humans than seeing someone's viscera. Yet, McCarthy focuses more upon violence than sex, or love if we want to talk in Victorian euphmemisms. Not an indictment, just an observation.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/15/1999
Russ, First of all, feminism is so splintered it can't really be talked about in one term like a big umbrella anymore. Regardless, I don't know how you reach the conclusion that I am an anti-feminist and wish you'd refrain from calling me it. My posts have had nothing to say about such a movement and have been as conciliatory as possible to Nell. I have no opinion whatsoever on what ideology she may or may not follow in life. I would reject the argument of any contributor that was projecting any ideology against a text that did not make sense, and in fact, I have, whether they be male or female or other. I'm not an anti-feminist. My wife is, though. Hoo boy. Big time. re: the duena. So you wanted her to go against social conventions (when did they become bad things anyway? I can name a few American ones you would probably defend, no?) that have been ingrained for generations so a love-sick Americano cowpuppy can ride away with a Mexican rose? I saw it coming a mile away and thought it very realistic.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Zeke	9/15/1999
Nell, What if it was actually proven that a woman, not Cormac, had written all these books? Just for the sake of discussion.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	John D.	9/15/1999
I have little to add, except that I must dissent that the vagina dentata is "every man's nightmare," as Russ posits above. I have this recurring nightmare about a chair. It just sits there. That's all. Cold sweats and screams and sleeping with the bathroom light on ensue. Whew! Lots of women are, in fact, dead, or are crazy, or are whores; and dead, crazy, promiscuous people sure do make great characters in novels. However: the quality of limited vision that this recursion of needlessly depthless women suggests is unsuitable for a writer of Cormac McCarthy's talent. Don't shoot the clown; the clown is being deliberately provocative; that's what clowns do. I think part of the issue at stake is similar to little kids on the street arguing over the dream lineup of a football team: 'God-damn, Cormac McCarthy sure can write about men! Wouldn't it be wild if he wrote a big crazy book about women?'

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Russ	9/15/1999
John, "Vagina dentata?" Very descriptive but very creepy. This whole thing is getting worse by the minute. Man, I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight. Yes, I would like to see McCarthy write some big book about women. New Orleans has a lot of them I hear--women that is. No name, Oops! "Anti-feminist" was a clumsy (and not well thought out)attempt to refer to your current difference of opinion with Nell. Just sloppiness I suppose. Perhaps "anti-misogynist reading of McCarthy" would be better. Or maybe I would do better to quit while I'm ahead and leave it to you to characterize your views.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/16/1999
Having often wondered what kind of a person is thatt Culla I found myself thinking today on a bus and before I read Nell talking about men leaving assholedom how much was charming about Culla and Rinthy and that they werent assholes. As much as it is so upsetting to imagine Culla wandering, perhaps lost confused and even apathetic , no guilty feeling and how could he kill his baby, well all of that Hes not an asshole in my eyes. And its true, hes not ignorant of his actions. More than anything when I think of this novel and the main characters...how odd but I think these are 'normal' people these are people just like anybody just working on life getting by sometimes just barely. I struggle to understand the significance of characters who are a combination of mistakemaking and surviving and apathetic and even ambitious or life seeking to the three bad guys out for violence and mayhem and the kindly people they meet...its such a different sort of quest story...such a nonromantic quest story. Such a Falling Down quest...modern dayish...

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	no name entered	9/16/1999
oops I meant Culla had a guilty feeling.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Russ	9/16/1999
No Name, I mean the first No Name on this thread. See, it's getting real hard to keep all this stuff straight. And others are following suit and posting anonymously. I'll continue to refer to you as "No name" because it is your preference. But my request would be for you to reassume your identity--you have a long and illustrious history on this forum. No Name, The last "No Name." I have often wondered which McCarthy book I would recommend that a young man read first. What about Outer Dark? It seems to resonate with the attitudes and fears of teenagers and twenty somethings--which I am not and which you may not be, either.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Candy Minx	9/16/1999

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Dianne Luce	4/30/2000
I am reviving this thread to correct something in Nell's posting of 9/14/99. This was my mistake, not hers. Last summer at the Boone conference, I told her about a letter I had from McCarthy in 1980. I had drafted my DLB article and sent it to him for corrections to the biographical information. He was kind enough to read through the whole thing, and he suggested two or three corrections to factual misinformation in my treatments of the novels. In my discussion of Outer Dark, I referred to Culla as "one of the main characters". Above the line, McCarthy queried "(not the main character?)" and he underlined "the". I am highly embarrassed to say that when I told Nell this story, I remembered it quite the reverse--that he had suggested there were two main characters. I'm afraid that twenty years later I still wanted to see Rinthy as carrying equal weight in the plot of that novel. Anyway, this is how misinformation gets started and perpetuated (I hope not all of it originates with me). Please everyone help me to correct this whenever it crops up again. My apologies to Nell and to you all.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Dianne	4/30/2000
Yes, Greg-- That's what he was doing. Of course, he himself may not have been a recent reader of Outer Dark. I might still argue that Rinthy balances Culla as Billy balances John Grady in The Border Trilogy-- author's belatedly stated intent notwhithstanding. She seems more than a minor foil to me, and the novel gives her almost as much space and narrative weight as it does Culla. The framing narratives are Culla's, and that seems to swing the balance to him. In fact, I suggested (not adamantly) in Boone that the whole of the book can be read as his dream-fiction and thus Rinthy would be a product of his imagination. But, as in the epilogue of Cities, her experience has its own autonomy, and she even knows things Culla does not know. Rinthy is a fairly flat character, but she is still one of the three or four most clearly defined of McCarthy's female characters. The two most interesting women he has written are both older: Alfonsa and Mrs. Gregg of The Gardener's Son. Both of them are minor characters, but complex and ambiguous. Of course, these works are both more realistic than Outer Dark. I find it interesting that McCarthy does not let Horses and Cities become love stories of the kind in which both lovers can be seen equally as protagonists. Alejandra and Magdalena remain minor characters in John Grady's story-- which is ultimately not about love. In contrast, Kelly in "Whales and Men" is a relatively flat character, but she is as much the protagonist of that play as the two men who form the other two sides of the love triangle. But even in this play, romantic love is not the central issue, but love of one's fellow creatures is.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Dianne	5/3/2000
I agree, but I think there is also the suspense generated by Culla's repeated intersections with the dark triune, and that pulls us through the book until they kill the child, an act that "resolves" both the Culla plot and the Rinthy plot. And I absolutely agree with you about John Grady and his loves as well.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Laurie	5/7/2000
Dianne: I'm not familiar with "Whales and Men" but I'm intrigued by what you said about it: that romantic love is not the central issue, but rather love of one's fellow creatures. Right up my alley. How/where can I find it? Thanks.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Rick Wallach	5/7/2000
Laurie: A word of warning: if Whales and Men -- a mercifully unproduced, unpublished 1980's screenplay full of environmentalist cliches and pulp romance level relationships -- isn't the worst thing McCarthy ever wrote, one can only hope he destroyed whatever else might be ranked below it. You won't believe it's the same author, and I'm still trying to convince myself the whole thing was a practical joke gone horribly wrong. Peter Josyph once spent half an evening on the phone begging me to send him my copy and when I finally relented, I had to spend another half an evening on the phone listening to his tirade about the worst parts of it -- nearly all of it, that is. The only accessible copy is in the Texas Writer's Collection at the library of Southwest Texas State University in San Marcos. I'd say I wished you luck finding a copy but I'm afraid that'd be a lot like how I'd feel lighting a cigarette for you -- the guilt one feels about indulging a friend's momentary urge but doing her no good in the long run.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Laurie	5/7/2000
Rick, Well, guess I'll scratch that one off my already too long reading list. Thanks for heading me off at the pass.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Chip	5/8/2000
Laurie-- Dianne Luce has quoted at length from "Whales and Men" in her essay on "The Crossing" in Perspectives. James Lilley has also published an essay on it in Southern Quarterly. Both will give you a sense of the ideas behind the screenplay. References to it will also show up in the forthcoming Border Trilogy issue of Southern Quarterly. While I would agree with Rick that, as a screenplay, it is inconceivable, as a gloss on McCarthy's growing ecological and moral sense of the world, esp. as illustrated in The Crossing and Cities, it is extremely significant. Rick (and Peter) have strong feelings, about some of which some of us agree to disagree.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Rick Wallach	5/8/2000
...albeit not as vehemently as about, say, certain pronunciations.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	John F	5/28/2004
The old crone in Outer Dark cackles at Rinthy about a hog eating its hoggets. For the chap, it's some twisted reverse primogeniture!!! :) Good analysis. P.S. This weekend, it's Inman time again, baby!!! Unholster that LeMat's and let's off some layabouts and sorry offscourings. :)

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	odsbodikins	5/28/2004
My hamster did that when I was young. She ate them all. Later, in high-school they tried to tell me that mammals nurture their young. I knew different.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	Jessica Greenman	4/13/2010
Oh God, eat all of them.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	mighkedelic	4/13/2010
lol you just responded to one of my posts from six years back. odsbodikins was one of my old names here. i'm a bit of a changeling.

Outer Dark, Infanticide, etc.	mighkedelic	4/13/2010
this thread has some old school peeps on it. dianne luce i believe. she's really rather highly regarded. as is john cant. and that no name fella reads very familiar. it's not me but i think i know who it is i still talk to him once in a while. good times back then. a lot of those folks dont come around as much. i know one of the friends i made from that time period passed away around the second time when i moved back out to new mexico. good old bruce. he was a cool guy. rip.

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