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Topic: McCarthy's Western Novels
Thread: More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle
 Total messages for all days: 14

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle nlawrence 10/17/2005
Elias: I just saw Rick's post, so here's my response to you again, in case the suzerains delete.

I have several times before on this Forum thrown in with the notion that McCarthy's oeuvre, overall, exudes a disdain for contemporary liberalism; _Blood Meridian_, for example, cerrtainly eschews the notion that humanity is somehow "perfectable," and challenges the liberal, pc revisionists at every turn. All of which is to refute the suggestion that _NCFOM_ somehow thre me for a loop, that I thought McCarthy was this progressive lefty before, and now I'm feeling disillusioned. That's NOT what's going on here.

As to the challenge put forth by Rick and others, that Bell's consciousness must be extricated from the author's, I can only say that if you didn't know it was a CM novel, and picked it up, I'd bet you dollars to dingleberries that you'd see Bell as occupying not only the narrative, but also very much the thematic center of this novel.

And Bell is indeed full of shit. His "journal" is filled with cliche after cliche, with little substance to back it up. Withy an entire history of human atrocities and shortcomings to cite, it's just ridiculous to suggest that things started getting bad when them there kids stopped saying sir and maam and dyed their hair green and asked for reproductive rights, etc. It is, again, good ole boy worship, and as I said before, it thrives off this stupid notion that _Happy Days_ documented America, when really it was just another interesting way of spinning and mythologizing it. Is today's America indeed No Country for "Old Men." Good!, I say, if the old men you're talking about are these old men who romanticize their own past and like to gloss figures like Wallace and Senator McCarthy and the KKK and etc etc etc. Maybe McCarthy, "old" himself, feels threatened by pot-smoking kids with green hair, maybe he doesn't. But Bell does, and Bell's feelings dominate the book. Me, I feel more threatened by old men intoxicated with the "Bravery of Being Out of Range," I feel more threatened by a lot of forces in this world than by "kids today."

Plus, I've seen more compelling villains than Chigurh, not just in other McCarthy novels, but also in, say, Stephen King or ten old James Bond flicks. Chigurh was phoned in--this idea of absolute evil, when compared to the mesmeric ambiguities of Glanton and the judge and Lester Ballard and and triumverate in OD, this idea, I say, was phoned in, perhaps after watching a few seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Moss and Carla Jean held interest for me, as did the hitchhiker. As literary figures they were at least halfway compelling. That's all the praise I got right now, though I hope to come to love this novel eventually, if for no other reason that because it's fun to realize that you were dead wrong about things. That's called growth. Something a certain redneck Sherrif could learn a bit about, I might add.

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Elias 10/17/2005
and in case you didn't see my reply there...

...Bell as occupying not only the narrative, but also very much the thematic center of this novel...and Bell's feelings dominate the book

Thanks for answering my question, Nick.

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle VanC. 10/17/2005
I purchased my first McCarthy novel over 15 yrs ago (Outer Dark) and was floored by the beautiful tragedy and the uncommon style of his work, quickly gathering all of his other novels. Reading Suttree left me feeling like the last man in the county to get indoor plumbing or electricity; I wished that I had discovered it sooner and had lived with the joys of knowing long before. Blood Meridian has been reviewed here before, everyone feeling the passions of evil and terrorism - beautifuly told. I have eagerly anticipated every work since.
Then came NCFOM-
Early reviews from this site proved to be nothing but rah-rah cheers from the sunshine pumpers, advance copies in hand; CM never stumbles, never falls. I bought my copy from one of the big chains the day it was released, read it in a couple of days. The weakest work by far. The entire thing reads like a screenplay, the only thing missing being camera directions - FADE IN - FADE OUT. No real depth. No large questions of God or humanity or frailty of human morals. Just Act 1, scene 2... The style that makes MC a great author cannot be translated to the big screen; look at the failure of ATPH - Billy Bob himself said that he could not do this work justice. It is too dependent on written words, the readers' own mind. Pacing for this type of talent cannot be conveyed on film. Actor's thoughts cannot be verbalized in ways that would complement the medium.
So McCarthy wrote a ready-made film, to be brought to being by the Cohen Bros. Good for him. He has a ton of talent and deserves success. I hope the film version makes him wealthy and maybe introduces him to thousands. But let's face it; this is more Elmore Leonard than W. Faulkner. Are we really supposed to believe a professional hit-man is going to walk around with as cumbersome a device as a skull spike? It should make an effective film prop, much like a chain saw and hockey mask.
I guess in a way I don't blame him for selling out. I'm just disappointed that I really looked forward to a new novel.
And as far as the afore-mentioned politics of McCarthy in this post - he is a lazy populist, no grand designs of an over-blown, bureaucratic Benevolent Government, nor exclusive Capitalist society - "This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land", Baby!

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Lane 10/17/2005
NCFOM is written in action and stark images. What McCarthy may have said in a paragraph in ATPH, he says in a single phrase or a simple image in NCFOM. The musings and grandiose language may be absent, as are long monologues and philosophical digressions, but I think McCarthy shows another side here. It is not like BM, SUTTREE, TC, or ATPH. It is wholly something other. It works more along the lines of Hemingway's iceberg theory. Most of the work's foundation rests below the surface, upoholding it. I think Richard L. in previous threads has made a strong case to support this.

The main differences in this novel to those previous are the stark language and the strong "moral" character at the center. The other differences are in my opinion rather small and superficial. The ending is as enigmatic as OD or COG or BM. That's a strong similarity, something that seems to me to reek of McCarthy.

And nlawrence, don't you think it's pretty clear that Bell does "learn" something and experience some change or "growth" at the novel's end? Even if we can't name it? Doesn't the novel's final line: "And then I woke up" seem to imply in Bell some sort of awakening or growth. Imply...that's a good word in this context. I think the novel is full of implication, perhaps its chief method. And again, I think numerous upthread posts testify to this.

But let's not kid ourselves, this novel is a genre novel. Genre stories play by a certain set of rules, as its in their nature as genre stories. I have immense respect Kubrick's THE SHINING, though many cast it off as a genre movie, missing all the philosophical throughlines his previous films displayed so overtly. I'd argue Kubrick's at the top of his game in THE SHINING, and that perhaps it was an even greater challenge for him an artist to work within the strict confines of a specific genre and still maintain artistic integrity, and his penchant for philosophy and social commentary.

In crime suspense thrillers, there is usually a good guy and a bad guy. NCFOM follows that rule. But doesn't McCarthy fool around with that convention a bit? There are many posts on this forum that argue that Bell might even be the bad guy because of his lack of conviction. "The best lack all conviction while the worst are full of passionate intensity." It's not your typical genre piece. The typical "alpha-male" character gets killed between chapters, or "off-screen." If that's how it goes down in the movie, off-screen, I'm sure many in the audience will be upset cause it will upset their conventional attitudes.

And another thing that I think is worth considering...how the novel functions as a parody of the "pot-boiler" suspense genre. Richard L's put some work into this theory, so I won't tread on his ground.

How about the characters talking to themselves all the time. I originally thought it was kind of cheesy, a pretty dated convention. On one hand, it supports the parody theory. Stock characters talking to themselves, speaking their thoughts. But I thought one of the most intriguing things that Richard pointed out was the novel's theme of the "double," or the "shadow." From one point of view the characters are talking to themselves, a convention that makes the novel even more "unrealistic" (a point I'll come to next), and from another point of view, the characters are speaking to their shadow or their double.

This novel announces itself as an artistic construct from the first sentence. It is not exclusively relative to the external world that exists outside the book. It is relative to itself as it is an entity unto itself, a la Borges' THE YELLOW ROSE. These might be stock character types who speak in cliches and often tend to voice rather simplistic political opinions. But I think what McCarthy does with them is pretty unique.

I admire James Lee Burke a lot, and I think his Dave Robicheaux crime novels are pretty top notch. Robicheaux is a lot like Bell, except Robicheaux goes after the bad guys. He gets in shoot-outs, he risks his life and his family's life all the time. Every novel, his family is in danger, he almost gets killed, and he gets brave or stupid enough to go after the bad guys. In the end he usually gets the worst of the bad guys while some of the smaller criminals get away. Even where Burke is pretty different from most, his books are standard formula. NCFOM is not formula at all. It takes the ingredients and kind of spins them around a bit.

The "large quesitions of God or humanity or frailty of human morals" lie beneath the surface, underlying the action. I think it is the general consensus that McCarthy is a highly allusive author who often, if not always, employs a complex symbolism in his novels. Why should we treat NCFOM any differently? Perhaps the allusions are not clear. Perhaps the symbolism seems non-existent. That doesn't mean that it isn't there. This has to be his shortest novel...is it? (Page-wise, COG may be shorter, but what about word count?) So as more action-based starkly written shorter novel, McCarthy may have gone about things differently. Isn't it our job as readers to step up to this new challenge? To give some respect to the work and see if McCarthy doesn't live up to his talents?

As for criticizing Bell for his moral and ethical musings, all I have to say is that he's a fictional character. Many readers are able to sympathize with Lester Ballard, a serial killer and necrophiliac, and yet this police officer who voices some personal opinions and who struggles to to live up to what he feels are his God-given duties seems to anger people. Go figure.

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Greg S. 10/18/2005
Might I suggest a close reading and comparison of The Stonemason with NCFOM as a way to get at the complexities of Bell's character. (Blast, my copy of Stonemason wandered off.) In the Stonemason, the son and his grandfather are perfectly decent people, but something is terribly wrong. The grandson's eulogies about the grandfather mask the problem. McCarthy goes as far as to warn the reader not to take everything the grandson says at face value. I think there is a lot of room for a similar read on Bell. Bell is a decent person, and he is doing his best to figure out the situation. By the end of the novel he acknowledges that his area has a long history of extreme violence ("I still keep thinkin maybe it is something about the country"), and he acknowledges that he has a bit of the same trait that unites him thematically with the son in Stonemason and the Judge in Blood Meridian ("There was always some part of me that wanted to be in charge. Pretty much insisted on it.") Bell is pretty much on the right track, but one senses that his limitations prevent him from getting his mind all the way around the problem. His reflection that we are being bought by our own money reflects just as much on Moss as it does on the rest of America.

I just don't see how one can read so much McCarthy into Bell. McCarthy plays with the readers, particularly with his intellectually inclined ones. He may even get in a few jabs at the reader through Bell. But this is the same guy who wrote those wonderfully mystical dialectical passages in The Crossing and COTP and the same guy who wrote those hilarious, bawdy passages in Suttree. McCarthy embraces it all, but he doesn't spare anyone. "Writers are always selling somebody out." (Joan Didion)

"I tried to put things in perspective but sometimes you're just too close to it. It's a life's work to see yourself for what you really are and even then you might be wrong."

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle nlawrence 10/18/2005
Lane: Perhaps Bell does experience a modicum of growth over the course of the novel. I just didn't see it. What I saw was him "surrendering" and/or "moving on" in some vague, pathetic way. And by the time he got to that point I didn't care what he did anyway.

BTW: At the end of your post you write: "Many readers are able to sympathize with Lester Ballard, a serial killer and necrophiliac, and yet this police officer who voices some personal opinions and who struggles to to live up to what he feels are his God-given duties seems to anger people. Go figure." Please, man. Let's not compare what cannot be. Bell's worldview is at stake throughout NCFOM.

Does one speak of "worldview" when one speaks of Ballard? Consider this passage: "He came up flailing and sputtering and began to thrash his way toward the line of willows that marked the submerged creek bank. He could not swim, but how would you drown him? His wrath seemed to buoy him up. Some halt in the way of things seems to work here. See him" (156). Ballard has gravity and so we gravitate towards him even as his actions horrify us. His is a large struggle, one of survival; what he "thinks" about contemporary issues matters about as much to us as an NFL Preseason.


Greg S: You and others here seem very concerned with disassociating Bell from McCarthy the man, which I find interesting in its own right, but also unnecessary. Who cares what "McCarthy himself" thinks, or whether he's a "nice guy" or a "sellout" or some such nonsense? I don't see him, for instance, fretting over my opinion on abortion, so I won't worry about his own. His BOOKS, however, I do care about. So disassociate Bell from McCarthy all you want: one is fictional and the other real, so you'll probably win your argument with all but the most strident Freudian. But try disassociating Bell from NCFOM, and well--good luck. You'll need it.

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Richard L. 10/18/2005
"Ballard has gravity and so we gravitate towards him even as his actions horrify us. His is a large struggle, one of survival; what he "thinks" about contemporary issues matters about as much to us as an NFL Preseason."

See the child. Ballard is a child of God. He has not outgrown his propensity for violence. It may take many lifetimes for him to do so.

ATPRH, TC, and COTP are heroic, not that the goals the characters have are conventionally heroic--they're not. But the quest, the crossing, is a heroic quest by McCarthy's scheme of things, the author's worldview.

The focal point of NCFOM is Bell, but it contains the simple-minded Child of God in Chigurh, and the heroic in Moss. Bell starts out the novel as advanced heroic, believing more in his own ideas of goodness and love, and becomes increasingly monkish himself. He transforms at the end of the novel and becomes one with God. He dies, but there is no death by McCarthy's scheme of things, only transformation. A reuniting with God, an awakening.

Good and evil are conjoined in McCarthy's world, yin and yang, and necessary for growth, conflict, narrative, life. Values evolve in the unconscious through evolution and complexity. The direction is up, a jacking up to higher levels of consciousness until the conscious can merge with the unconscious, not by questing outward, but inward.

Bell is the first and the last. He started out many lives ago as a Ballard or a Chigurh, evolved into a Moss or a Billy, and in Bell he eventually sheds his attachment to the world and becomes one with God.

Bell's pre-transformation monkish ideas, getting horses away from death sites, etc., may or may not be McCarthy's, but in the novel, they are irrelevant. What is important is the giving up of attachment to the material and the inward search, through which he flows back to God.

The evolution of souls and reincarnation have been in McCarthy's work all along. Thus the child becomes the father of the man. I predict the next novel will also feature some kind of a hermit seeking to merge with the Oversoul.

I realize that few, if any, will agree with me on this. Eventually, the crit-lit will catch up with the novel. Steven R. Carter's JAMES JONES: AN AMERICAN ORIENTALIST MASTER, shows that McCarthy is not the only American author to base his works upon these fundamental ideas.

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle nlawrence 10/18/2005
Richard, as usual coming from you that's a lot to chew on, and chew I will.

However, I cannot but take issue with your comparison between Ballard and Chigurh. I simply fail to see how, either symbolically or in terms of literary oomph those two figures occupy the same plane--you and I had seen Chigurh before, after all, in books and movies panning multiplke genres: and I have resigned myself to seeing far too much more of him in the future. I'm only slightly joking when I suggest that Chigurh's merely an acid trip away from being the bad guy in _Dirty Work at the Crossroads_.





More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Richard L. 10/18/2005
Yes, by conventional standards, Ballard and Chigurh have nothing in common.

By the standards of the McCarthy's worldview as exhibited in his novels, Ballard and Chigurh are both children with a propensity toward violence, half-men, half-beast.

Chigurh still has the insolent adolescent ego. He is a highly competent but murderous Pete Rose on the basepath, mowing people down because they get in the way. All is ego, force, a will to power.

Chigurh is aging now, but slowly. He makes a mistake and thinks that he learned something that he needed to learn that and now he has caught up with himself. He still thinks he knows it all.

But life is a series of mistakes and catching up with yourself. That is how we mature.

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Lane 10/18/2005
nlawrence,
I agree that I shouldn't have compared the reader's response to Bell with the response to Ballard. The two are drawn so utterly differently.

But I'm not sure what I think of Bell's worldview being at stake. If it is, what is the resolution? First of all, what is his worldview? He's trying to figure out how the world went wrong in the past thirty years or so, and he has his opinions, his thoughts. I'm not sure that the novel hangs on him coming to terms with or resolving his political opinions with the rest of the world. I'd say his struggle is moral for sure. But what he talks about with abortions and bones in noses is less moral, more superficial opinions.

So why are they in the novel?

I think it's just a part of this particular individual's search for meaning and right-living. Where did things go wrong with the world? he asks. He looks out at the world, talks about green hair and bad manners, but in the end he comes back to his own life. The world has an evil in it, and he's willing to let that evil go, unanswered, unsought. At the novel's end, he does turn inward and focus on his own moral dilemma. And the final piece of the novel is a dream, full of implication and evocative symbolic imagery. From the external, to the internal, to the universal.

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Elias 10/19/2005
What redeems Bell is his introspection (the motivation to take stock of himself, his conduct as a sheriff and a man) and his honesty. He tells a million little lies to himself, but it is not to deceive anyone but himself (and it's actually more like a long dialogue with himself and his recollections and his judgements in which he takes several positions trying to justify this or that, all tentative or temporary, or, as it is for all interrogative people, at risk of being re-evaluated("it's a life's work to see yourself for what you really are and even then you might be wrong" (p.292)), and he is ultimately unsuccessful, arriving, always, at the bitter truth. This is the only redemption that matters. He knows he's failed. He struggles to understand it, and finally admits it. In doing so, he redeems himself.

"I think I know where this is goin, he said. [Ellis]
Yessir. [Bell]
What do you think he would of done? [Ellis, referring to Jack]
I know what he would of done. [Bell]
Yeah. I guess I do too. [Ellis]
He'd of sat there till hell freezes over and then stayed a while on the ice. [Bell, referring to what he did not do in WWII]
Do you think that makes him a better man than you? [Ellis]
Yessir. I do. [Bell]
(p.276-7)

This is wholly separate from the events themselves or how those events and his behavior may be objectively judged. This is critical to understand. He can't undo what's been done (in the case of his cowardice in WWII) or do what will remain in his mind undone (hunt for Chigurh). (By the way, Bell makes a direct connection between the two, virtually referring to Chigurh and his scourge across his county, on his watch, as a manifestation, a revisitation, a reification of his cowardice and guilt in WWII: "I believe that whatever you do in your life it will get back to you[...]it took a shape I would not have guessed it to have" (p.278-9)).

He doesn't forgive himself. His sense of guilt doesn't remove the objective failure, and this is not its motivation. His resignation isn't transformative.

"I always thought when I got a little older that God would sort of come into my life in some way. He didn't. I don't blame him. If I was him I'd have the same opinion about me that he does. [Bell]
You don't know what he thinks. [Ellis]
Yes I do." [Bell]
(p.265)

He doesn't change his mind about his failure. ("I dont make excuses for the way I think" (p.282)) If he did, it would be a deceit, self-ordained, and he knows it. He doesn't conveniently dismiss an old code of ethics or worldview in which he is found to be a failure only to assume a code of ethics or worldview in which he is suddenly no longer found to be a failure.

"Now I aim to quit and a good part of it is just knowin that I wont be called on to hunt this man...So you could say to me that I aint changed a bit and I dont know that I would even have a argument about that. Thirty-six years. [referring to the last time he was faced with a choice like this one, back in WWII] That's a painful thing to know."
(p.279)

That he's still the same man he was back then.

Despite Ellis, presumably his wife, and many readers right here trying their damndest to give him some slack (and bless your hearts, "you care about people you try and lighten their load for em" (p.278), but you must seperate that from objective judgement and allow him to be a failure for it actually inhibits his redemption otherwise), he never gives himself any when it's all said and done. And only in that harsh light is he (or any of us) redeemed.

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Markus 10/19/2005
Thankyou, Lane, Greg S. and Elias for expressing ideas about Bell that I found hard to articulate. I enjoyed this book so much. It was so refreshing after COTP which I found a bit disapointing.

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Candy Minx 10/23/2005
Blood Meridian is to http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/m/michelan/1sculptu/david/david.html

as,

NCFOM is to http://www.bodyworlds.com/en/pages/home.asp

More NCFOM, Bell as Oracle Glass 4/7/2009
"Any time you quit hearin Sir and Mam the end is pretty much in sight." (Bell, NCFOM 304)

"Elton's wife looked at him. You wouldn't mind not callin me mam would you?...It makes me feel like an old woman." (COTP 23)



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