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Topic: McCarthy's Southern Works
Thread: Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian
 Total messages for all days: 41

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jonglyn 10/25/2006
Started reading BM again and, on page 4, came across this line that reminded me of the setting for The Road:

"...not again in the world's turning will there be terrains so wild and barbarous to try whether the stuff of creation may be shaped to man's will or whether his own heart is not another kind of clay."

And there, I thought, was the primal struggle of The Road. Terrains so wild and barbarous. The stuff of creation, the bombs the anti-stuff of creation. And whether this apocalyptic setting will destroy HOPE (man's will)or whether man's heart is made of sturdier clay than the terrain itself.

Like posts have mentioned before, Cormac McCarthy returns to the same themes, the same settings: man vs. Nature (both inner and outer), man vs. the changing times.

And it reminded me of that blurb on the back of COTP: "Such writers wrestle with the gods themselves."


PS. The last word in The Sunset Limited is "okay." Another resonance.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Candy MInx 10/25/2006
jonglyn,

I think you ask a great question. The argument of Blood Meridian, which you quoted fromis one I am not sure I can find the answer to within the novel. I often wonder if that question means, should man be shaping the existing creation? Or are people able to live without taking on that responsibility.

The kid saying to the judge "you ain't nothing" suggests he has somehow shuffled out of his previous life of living without questioning his actions...the kid seemed to float along with whatever group he met and their activities. By the time he says no to the judge maybe he has hinted that he sees a free will within himself?

Sometimes the epilogue seems to demonstate another bunch of humans just following along behind someone else shaping the creation to their own will-the post digger who plays with the fire that god put there.

Does The Road deal with this thesis? Maybe. The kid and father in The Road seem to have decided that to kill for food is wrong.

But I shall think some more about this....I hope someone else can make some sense out of these things....

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jonglyn 10/25/2006
Yeah, I just see McCarthy's stories always spinning around this line from Blood Meridian, whether or not the time and land will shape man or whether man will have the will to shape his time and land himself. Do we shape the clay of our heart or does our land and time shape it for us?

And by the time and land, I think Cormac wants us to add animals too, like he said in The Crossing, "the rich matrix of creatures...deer and hare and dove and groundvole...all nations of the possible world ordained by God."

In The Crossing, Billy's relationship with the wolf seems to be part of this theme, Boyd's relationship with horses and dogs too. John Grady Cole and his horses and his dog too. Mac's ranch being sold to Alamagordo. Uncle Ather from The Orchard Keeper. The stonemason family, the grandfather who won't hew rocks. The kid giving in to the history of bloodlust in the Wild West (not that he put up much of a struggle). Sheriff Bell and his soliloquies also lament the way the world is changing, the way he has to change with it, being an officer of the law.

With The Road, McCarthy really puts this theme (and his writing skills) on trial, because he created a world devoid of landscape, unsculpted again, the rich matrix is gone. McCarthy was always known for his accurate descriptions of landscapes and objects and animals and animal behavior; many of his critics always complained about stock characters or the way he relied on iconic traits to create characters.

In The Road, I feel like he really challenged himself by (1) creating a future instead of an already shaped past and (2) getting rid of animals and different landscapes, keeping his writing in the same palette of gray ash and ruins. Now are terrains for man, and writer, to shape.


Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian John Graham 10/26/2006
Why are the animals not in this desolate landscape? After all some humans survive yet the animals and food sources and, surprisingly, all the guns and rifles are gone. This book does not make sense. No Country For Old Men was a disappointment but this is McCarthy's worst effort. The treatment of the wife's suicide and the contrived ending are pathetic. I long for the days of The Crossing which I think is one of the great novels.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Candy Minx 10/26/2006
John Graham, I was having tea this morning and wondering why? Why no animals...and my thoughts were being drawn to jonglyn's post here.

jonglyn, are we sure that the line in Blood Meridian means what you say...that the land and time will shape man or will man shape our own heart? Because I keep reading this line...and I keep seeing it as asking...

"whether the stuff of creation may be shaped to man's will"

First why not try to answer this question? Whether the stuff of creation may be shaped to man's will?

Does the novel answer this question? Can we simply ask it right now here, at this forum?

I would say that the history of humans has shown the stuff of creation can not be shaped (permanently or safely) by man's will.

I'd like to see some ideas regarding this...then get back to the question of John's about animals...I have some ideas...but I need to take this, for my own head's sake one step at a time...

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Laurie Stewart 10/26/2006
"whether the stuff of creation may be shaped to man's will"

"I would say that the history of humans has shown the stuff of creation can not be shaped (permanently or safely) by man's will."

I totally agree with you Candy. And that's how I've always read the epilogue to BM -- as a scene of futility, humans looking down into the holes they have made, trudging on, believing their efforts will result in some progress.

I also think there is a fine resonant response to the Judge's nihilistic "the mystery is there is no mystery" in the final paragraph of The Road "where all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery."


Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Candy Minx 10/26/2006
"...not again in the world's turning will there be terrains so wild and barbarous to try whether the stuff of creation may be shaped to man's will or whether his own heart is not another kind of clay."

For me, this question, argument or thesis is so important to Blood Meridian. I think it's on page four(I don't have a copy here) and it reminds me of many classic novels where the novel proposes an argument...even gasp...an intent! Seen as a very old fashioned device in contemproary literary criticm I understand.

So...

...can we see the idea of "whether the stuff of creation may be shaped to man's will"

...as an idea that intervention, or striking the fire from the rock that god put there as connected? I think they are.

The idea of not shaping the creation to man's will seems rather extreme or alternative. Like the Amish or Quaker idea of discussing what technological advances will we adopt and what will we avoid or reject? A Buddhist idea of vegetarianism? Or not stepping on a bug?

This idea freaks me out because it makes me wonder...how much do we care or even like the boy in The Road. The boy does not want anyone killed for food. Neither does the father.

I believe the reason if I may guess in such an unimaginative way, that there are no animals left, or bugs is to reduce our options as readers.

We are stuck with the strange weight of these people who will not kill other people for food. It's almost as if the novel does not allow us to shirk away from the idea in any manner that killing people for food is non-negotiable for the concept of lifeaffirmation=goodness. PERIOD.

Humans have never killed for anything BUT food all this time...what are we to make of a novel that might define goodness as not killing humans? PERIOD.

Could killing humans for food be related to shaping the stuff of creation to man's will?

Could that really be what this novel might be dealing with? Or am I high?

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian kincaid 10/26/2006
The reasons that there are no animals (other than man) in TR are that man is the only animal that knows how to open canned food and man is (like it or not) the top predator within the food chain. In the absense of mamals, fishes, birds, and reptiles I was of course looking for roaches, but that is probably just conditioning of popular culture. Most suprising was the appearance of the emaciated dog just after the sighting of the little boy in the town. This singular sighting is the only evidence of any non human life, excepting fungus and the virus or bacteria that caused the seperate illnesses of the father and son. The dog had to have been fed by someone but why.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian elizabeth murphy 10/26/2006
I'm still reading Blood Meridian so I'll duck the bigger issues about its "intent". But the absence of animals would follow destruction of plant life. I can see that animals would have been killed for food or died from starvation. I wondered why there were human corpses but not animal corpses. This may have been covered on another thread....

I don't think the argument can be made that "Humans have never killed for anything BUT food all this time" - People kill for all sorts of different resources, power, delusions, emotion.

Elizabeth

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jonglyn 10/26/2006
I guess I did misread the question, Candy, because I think you are right, and I think your interpretation fits with McCarthy's "argument" of BM. And corresponds to what the judge says at one point, something like war was always here on earth waiting for man. We can't shape the creation, it shapes us.

And the kid, and most of McCarthy's characters, are swept up in history, forces out of their control. But then again, you say: "that the history of humans has shown the stuff of creation can not be shaped (permanently or safely) by man's will."

Well, in The Road, man does do just that. He destroys the world with his atomic bombs, re-shapes it, and the way the atomic bomb works is, poetically speaking, by un-doing the stuff of creation, breaking the bonds of atoms.

The nuclear bomb has shown up in the Border Trilogy too. Billy sees an explosion toward the end of The Crossing. And Mac's ranch is being bought out by the government so they can continue their testings.

The absence of animals? Who am I to say what Cormac's thinking? But I see his new "style", his refrain from the grandiloquence, as a way of him putting man on trial, ridding him of the scenery and animals and language he is so good at describing and using. The bare stage of The Sunset Limited seems to be along the same line. I think it's relevant then that Cormac ends the book on a hopeful note.

I don't know. But this is why I read the old guy.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Candy Minx 10/27/2006
"We can't shape the creation, it shapes us."

Well, let's still go slow here. For the sake of a viewpoint we seem to be able t agree that a question is asked "whether the stuff of creation may be shaped to man's will" ?

The idea that "we can't shape the creation" doesn't automatically mean it shapes us.

Isn't that what this equation is asking...is it the creation shaping us or are we able to shape ourselves?

"or whether his own heart is another kind of clay" ?

Elizabeth, back later about food and motives for humans killing humans. I consider "resources and power" part of food. Resources are extended versions of food. Food being a very flatline basic. Resources like power and water and more relate to food production. Water for drinking or cooking...oil/gas for driving to the jobs that we must have if we want food.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian elizabeth murphy 10/27/2006
“His origins are become remote as is his destiny and not again in all this world’s turning will there be terrains so wild and barbarous to try whether the stuff of creation may be shaped to man’s will or whether his own heart is not another kind of clay.” (pg 4)

* “His origins are become remote as is his destiny” is applicable to either the man or the boy in The Road which seems interesting.
* I think McCarthy tends to include “man” as part of “creation” which adds to the complexity/ambiguity of the sentence.
* I view “man’s will” (implies a decision -what he thinks is “right“ or will help him reach a goal) and “man’s heart” (hope, intuitive belief, love) as different from each other.
*The phrase “another kind of clay” implies a an ability to be molded and even transformed that could potentially be positive rather than simply less sturdy than the terrain.

Here is a passage from The Road to compare with the sentence from Blood Meridian:
“There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one’s heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes. So, he whispered to the sleeping boy. I have you.” (pg 46)
I think this gets close to expressing part of that story’s core.

In both quotes McCarthy mixes similar concepts….origins/destiny/later, wild/barbarous/grief/pain, creation/shaped/birth, clay/ashes and heart. There is certainly resonance here.

Elizabeth
X-posted with Candy

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian elizabeth murphy 10/27/2006
Candy, is it fair to say that “food” is a part of “resources“? The example that comes to mind is an episode when the man and boy are traveling through a burned area and have no wood for fire. The father fears that if they get wet they will freeze and die. They need shelter or food won‘t matter. I’d say wars are often started by those seeking personal or group power who recruit soldiers by convincing people that a target group is a threat to their resources (including food). I’ll agree that you can stretch most killings into some type of resource issue but there are plenty of others (serial killers are just one example) that are not motivated by survival.

E.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jeffr 10/27/2006
Jonglyn

I don't think the text of TR supports an 'atomic bomb' reading.

The cataclysm might be human in origin, but there's lots of evidence that it might not be and to my reading, overwhelmingly.

I think this is important to any reading of TR.
A distinction as to cause: human, extraterrestrial/volcanic, or an ambiguity, will lead to very different interpretations.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian robj 10/28/2006
Not to redirect this thread, but I have to chime in and agree with jeffr here:

Although I tend to favor a reading of the book in which nuclear war caused the devastation, this is my own inference alone. The text gives no concrete or overriding evidence that a nuclear strike took place. The text leaves open the cause of the cataclysm.

We have discussed this at length previously on the forum, and my thoughts what triggered the cataclysm have evolved.

rjj


Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian drewdeman@comcast.net 11/4/2006
Okay, this is going to sound mundane against yall's philosophical, metaphysical questions, but here goes.

I was particularly struck by the non-decaying leaves, pine needles, whole orchids, briars and bodies. Non-decaying. Why? No microbes. The boy is sickened by a bacteria living safely in a can of contaminated food, I suppose. The father has either lung cancer or emphysema, or something like them, I'd guess--both of which are caused by toxins or carcinogens or other mineral presences, right? I don't think there are many non-animals left, or any lower life-forms, such as microbes, bacteria, viruses. In any case, if they're around (some epidemics were mentioned in the book, right?), they're no longer common. The father could have tuberculosis, but if so, he could have been incubating it and carrying it for a long time.

I was saying on another thread that plants are not going to grow here. There are none living. (Although it is poignantly hopeful that the man randomly pockets the seed packets he finds in the tool shed.) If no microorganisms exist to eat up dead leaves or dead people, and soil cannot be made to engender plant growth nor water, algae growth, it's kind of a dead, static world, biologically speaking. That's one of the naturalistic touches that Mac (who usually uses intimate description of living natural detail so well) puts to good use here to prove sorrow and hopelessness of the profoundly ruined, static and un-done world.

What cellular life has been reduced to is a kind of mineral afterlife. When you die, your body (if not eaten) will just dessicate. It won't rot. When an apple falls to the ground, it just shrivels. No mice and no weevils will eat grain from an old hay bale.
It's a sadly eternal, desert-like, mineral existence, devoid of the dirty, fluid, rich abundance we find in the matrix of life on Earth.

From a biological point of view, whatever this apocalypse was, it has been a horrible un-making, as some of yall have said. And to weigh in on nuclear or not, I'd say, in light of this weird reversal of nature--this sterilization--that is was nuclear.



Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian glanton 11/8/2006
Could the father have radiation sickness?

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jeffr 11/9/2006
"Could the father have radiation sickness?"
No.
The event was years past.
Radiation poisoning is immediate and acute.
The very rare cases of chronic radiation sickness result from long periods of high exposure.
There is close to NO evidence in the text that the cataclysm is a nuclear war.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian glanton 11/9/2006
right...and what occurs between his wife's suicide and the road trip? where are he and the boy? And I speculate endlessly on the cause of global destruction...aliens? some natural phenomena, or has Cormac dropped all pretense and used the rapture itself boldly?

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Lee Driver 11/9/2006
I don't have the book here, I loaned it out, but that "series of muffled detonations" means something. The overall result though, is that the earth, its power to rejuvenate, has been killed, and is, as far as we can see, all ash. It doesn't seem there is any one thing we know of, that could cause this. Although none of us seem to doubt it could happen.

I came back from Viet Nam pretty dismayed, and began nursing apocalyptic notions around then. Not because I thought it inevitable, but because I didn't see how humankind was going to wake up without some huge catastrophic smack in the face. So my tendency is to think, human cause. Could be killing the rainforest off begins a weakening of the earths immune system that makes food scarce and disease stronger that makes humans crazier and more tribal and survivalist and religiously fanatic than ever and then, you know, bombs or whatever... one thing leads to another, a chain reaction.

I like to think the artist can have an influence, by showing us where this careening car is headed, somewhere along the road before the tipping point. Which is why I love sharing and talking about this book.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian robj 11/9/2006
I'm not arguing in favor of the premise that a nuclear attack set off the cataclysm.

But I don't know if anyone can rule it out completely either.

People live for years with the effects of radiation sickness... witness survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And there is clear evidence linking various forms of cancer to atomic testing that occurred in the desert of the American Southwest.

I have decided that for myself, I can understand the book without divining the exact cause of the destruction.

But I'm not ready to rule out some of the things that could have occurred... meteor strikes, atomic attacks, nuclear plant meltdowns, quakes, or any combination of these kinds of events.

rjj

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jeffr 11/9/2006
Glanton, Lee

This link:
(WARNING; PDF)http://personals.galaxyinternet.net/tunga/TA.pdf

... gives an account of current scientific thinking.

If he'd wanted us to meditate on a human caused cataclysm, he'd've been unambiguous about it.

As it is we're forced to meditate on other, even more confronting things.


Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Lee Driver 11/10/2006
jeffr - Yes, (I looked at that pdf.) I see a deep impact could cause an environment like that in the book. Thank you. But I wasn't insisting it be man made, only saying I personally have a tendency to see through that lense from, probably, too much pondering. But your right, the story is not about how or why. We're just plunked down in it. And as was observed in another thread, the holes (ambiguities) play every bit as eloquently, as the spaces filled in.

Now, as to resonance with Blood Meridian, I'm going to have to go back and read that again, right after I eat some raw meat, and chase it with mescal.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jeffr 11/11/2006
jonglyn

Thanks again for starting this thread.

Revisiting BM I've come to see the two as almost companion pieces.

Consider the following parallels and inversions:

• The chronolgy of both stories commence with fire in the sky and the birth of a child.

• Both children become orphans.

• TR is a story of a father and son. Holden and the Kid read as a father-son conflict with Holden going so far as to verbalise this relationship.

• The ending of both stories is acutely cryptic, inviting multiple interpretations.

• Holden is an encyclopedic multiskilled polymath. The man has very similar qualities. Both inspect and marvel at relics and ephemera.

• Holden states that his calling is to war and ultimately kills the kid. The man inverts this stating his calling as the nurturing of the boy. The man dies.

• The kid carries a bible with him, tho' he can't read it. The boy can't read the map.

• On both journeys the travellers encounter abandoned burnt vehicles and multiple tortured corpses.

• The routes of both journeys cross a continental divide.

• In each there is a near fruitless jouney to the sea.

• Both have encounters with hermits involving arcane, prophetic and metaphysical conversations. In one near the beginning, in the other towards the end.

• BM is rich with astronomy, zoology, botany, geology... TR has no visible stars and a dead biosphere.

• BM is drenched with supernatural, superstitious and religious themes, elements and settings. In TR there are spare references to 'god' and the prophets and they are scathing.

• Both stories start in Tennessee.

• The Kid and the boy exhibit kindness, mercy, maybe even altruism. The Man and Holden condemn this.

• BM is the story of the rampage of murderous brigands told from within the band. The Man and The Boy in TR spend their time and energy avoiding such gangs of 'roadagents'(this word also occurs in BM) and observing them.

• Odd details are repeated, improvised firearms, a cart put to an improvised use, horrible infanticide, bathing after bloody violent encounters.

... and then there's the meteorite.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Clement 11/11/2006
"In TR there are spare references to 'god' and the prophets and they are scathing."

Man, I'm not sure we even read the same book.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian peterfranz 11/11/2006
I've also noticed that 'The Road' and 'Blood Meridian' are by the same author, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

pf

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian robj 11/11/2006
jeffr,

Those are all good and valid points.

Many of them are valid in other McCarthy works.

Plenty of orphans: John Wesley Rattner, Lester Ballard, Billy Parnham.

Plenty of mysticism and marveling at arcane objects throughout the McCarthy canon.

Other instances of younger people exhibiting altruism while older folks (parents or those in loco parentis) frown on such actions. Witness Billy Parnham's altruism in taking the wolf back to Mexico, at odds with his father, who would kill the wolf. There are other examples of this in Orchard Keeper.

McCarthy's Appalachian novels are all set in Tennessee...end there too. There's no concrete indication that The Road begins in Tennessee, although it's clear the man and son pass through.

Many of McCarthy's works are drenched in allusions to prophets and religions, including Christianity. Some of those allusions are irreverent (an obscene fat white man forcing himself on a young person in a church outhouse. And no, that's not Blood Meridian).

Near as I can tell, most of McCarthy's novels make an appearance in The Road. Orchards. Caves. Dead infants. Crossings. Appalachia. The sea. Mysticism. Evil bands of killers. And so on.

rjj

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jeffr 11/12/2006
rjj

I agree, there's heaps of intertextuality.
But I find TR does have a particular resonance with BM.
Hence jonglyn's title for this thread.
The Man can almost be an anti-Holden and the Boy an antithesis of the Kid

clement

I'm sure.
Are you suggesting that TR is as dense with mysticism and symbolism as BM?
There's no Tarot, Priests, Churches or Astrology... all 'quaint concerns' perhaps.
The Man curses god and describes the world he lives in as honouring the prophets.
I interpret both these observations as scathing.
How do you interpret them?

pj
"I've also noticed that 'The Road' and 'Blood Meridian' are by the same author, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence."
Can you explain this statement?

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Clement 11/12/2006
Jeff, I've not much time, so just a quick one to elucidate my position....

On pg 230

"He'd stop and lean on the cart and the boy would go on and then stop and look back and he would raise his weeping eyes and see him standing there in the road looking back at him from some unimaginable future, glowing in that waste like a tabernacle."

Tabernacle - portable house of God.
There is also the scene where he dries the boys hair by the fire...a chalice to house a God I believe he says

The death scence you bring up with all the prophets being honoured - I did read quite differently from you - it is not only the prophets of eschatology that are honoured, but the prophets of advent too - and often they are one and the same. This explains a lot in the difference of our interpretations.


Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jeffr 11/12/2006
Clement

I agree, those terms are there. But they stand out because they are so spare. I find this a strong contrast with BM.
The instances you quote are strongly memorable. But I read them as the man's apotheosis of his son.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian schimpfian1 11/12/2006
The main difference between the two books is that The Road is ultimately hopeful. The kid does not die; he is left in capable hands and has some semblance of a chance to continue on. I cannot help but reflect on McCarthy's life situation when I read this book. He is an old man with a young child who is comtemplating the fact that he will leave his son long before the boy reaches maturity. Given his deep love for his child, he is not capable of the complete and through nihilism that prevades Blood Meridian. In that book, only the Judge survives. The Kid dies and there is no hope for a possible future. All that remains is the Judge and War. A younger McCarthy did not have the same scruples about painting a bleak picutre of the future. There is also the constant worry about being good in The Road which is nowhere to be found in Blood Meridian. Good and evil, as the Judge reminds us, is an invention. The old man of The Road has not abandoned morality or worries about the metaphysical purpose of our lives. These concerns are notably absent in Blood Meridian.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jeffr 11/12/2006
schimpfian1

Thanks for those insights.

I'm coming to see The Road as almost a negative parody of Blood Meridian.

Whatever McCarthy's motivations, TR is shot through with the need to seek, maintain and preserve 'goodness'. This is not just foreign to BM, it is anathema to it.

The man asserts that goodness will find the little boy, it always does. Holden asserts, as you say, that good and evil are fanciful and meaningless notions.

The world of BM is encyclopedically detailed. That of TR is stunningly spare.

Yet despite the undoubtedly hopeful ending to TR (a direct contrast to that of BM in which Holden asserts that there is no mystery), the meditation on the trout that concludes TR asserts not only that there is a mystery but that the mystery predates humanity, and by implication, will outlast humanity.
So much for Holden's assertion; "that which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent".

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian schimpfian1 11/13/2006
jeffr,
i tend to agree with your thought that the two books are like ying and yang. The tone of each is distinctly McCarthy, but they represent fundamentally different world views. Your comments about the two endings are right on. I had not thought about it but now that you point it our, I see your point. It just further demonstrates how these two books are antipodes.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jeffr 11/13/2006
schimpfian1

I keep seeing more of these parallels and inversions.

The journey in The Road is eastward.
BM and most other of the books have westward movement.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Jessica Greenman 12/23/2009
I found all these comments extraordinary and inspiring. I've just finished reading The Road and was unable to get past a few pages of Blood Meridian which I tried about a year ago, but I'll give it another go over Christmas in the light (ha) of all this.

I read in a very different way to all you people; I read for the language and for the emotional propulsion. This one, this Road one, was already how I mostly feel anyway, so it was easy for me to read and understand. Actually, a lot of you don't talk about the language very much, by which I mean these scenic descriptions and the catalogues of a land disinterred. I had a few difficulties understanding how anything had survived at all and why in fact there was much point in continuing since future life was eradicated, its potential; but he goes on, the father with his son, he goes on, and that seemed to make meaning for me, if that at all answers the question about what shapes creation, or if the will of man has a hand in it, which has been asked by a couple of people here. God has always seemed to me the force of creation, and that exists for its own ends alone and inside whatever chaos. The love here is not of the normal order and not claiming, even here, selfish or rational ends but other ends and other insistences.

The dialogue of this book is an enquiry between what one must do to survive and what the point of survival is; the kinds of questions I find often in Shakespearian Tragedy and certain rather extreme poetry, not in modern novels, or often novels at all. How far does one go to defend and to breed, or even to exist at all, when to live is to kill in one form or another? It is purgatory here, perhaps slightly worse than purgatory because one is meting it out with no hope, and even living at all eats at the infirmary of another, when to dream is to destroy and to remember to deny (there's a quote for that but I've given the book away). McCarthy's made a kind of picture of available compromise in a world where nothing can ever again grow and memory slays the past it recollects; thought itself hurts the thing it thinks of; there's something somewhere about how literature wrote on assumption and expectation and was a library of lies. Without the world, who are we. Without memory and language, what are we. And this boy is really the emblem of all that: a-historical, untrained, practically pre-vocabulary, yet alive and creative: he's the creative focus. Though he's very annoying when he keeps forgetting things and losing the gun and so on: I'd shout and clip him round the ear, but it is a metaphysical terrain: he is love, isn't he, and love forgets defense, love does not destroy. On the other hand, how many cans of food can you get through before you just take a bite out of a passing stranger? Perhaps you'd just lie down and die instead rather than chew off someone's face, I don't know.

What I mean to say about all this is that the entire book is something to do with the point of creation placed inside the worst interior dynamic: where sustenance seems to cut away at others' sustenance and self-replenishment attacks the world around it. This fish bit at the end struck me too - the novel ends on the word 'mystery' (I think; because I unfortunately have just lent the novel to Simon Downstairs who won't even read it and certainly won't understand it if he does) and I agree that somehow in all this, there is a mystery beyond the ribs of the book, and it reminds me of writing, or moments where one knows not why but continues anyway. It may be this particular striving that has created the beginnings of the universe in the first place.

It is very unusual for a book to picture up the conveyance of rational existence, or the rationality of existence, in such a satisfying way and under circumstances that have no obvious rapture to them. I was reminded constantly of paintings and etchings, of Art in fact, but more drawing type art, or art before anyone's filled anything in yet, for sure a world before colour. Nothing has any flesh, all the grass is dry and the sea is just some salt tomb; this is all pre-colour, it is the beginnings of writing and the beginnings of paper even - why one would ever depict anything, why one would choose to breathe. It's the love that sends him on this road, and it's the love that is, I think, the custodian of the damage: I am reading this poetically; I am reading a parable of why life is such a bloody pain. These orchids that are somehow mummified, the burnt trees; it's as if he said: 'but why wake up in the morning, why go on, if we take away all material reasoning and ease, and give no reason for it and no reason for tomorrow? Create a world where all has been - unmade' - as somewhere here put it, where the atom has been disbanded from the atom. It's all unlinked, in this world, and there's only one force to link things. Poetically, it's the fire that's laid waste the world so these two now 'carry the fire', in the form of salvation, whether they perish or no.

I've had trouble with McCarthy before because I felt a bit alienated from his thoughts and considerations, but this particular book seemed to me to be so much about the point of creation, with no reflection of creation, creation against the odds, which really is why anyone creates at all, that every page mattered, every word in fact. And it didn't seem to me any more about a world that had been destroyed but about the reason for the world and for its inevitable rebirth; the world mapped out on the scales of the fish, the pattern of worms in fact, because I think it was the worm that started all this, some snake thing way back (final paragraph) 'vermiculite'. William Blake thinks it all starts with the worm.

I was... rather... undone by this book, but for its prodigious faith, not its waste land epitaph (or epigraph). There is something about this book that reminds me of Paul Celan, that Holocaust poet, though McCarthy's slightly more optimistic. Both lean towards this idea of burning and erasure, and language just doesn't get pumped out in the same way as it would in a fertile climate; drewdeman (above) talks of a world reduced to a kind of mineral afterlife, a reversal of nature, and I think he's right, though it's more to do with a poetic separation than a cellular one, 'Everything uncoupled from its shoring.' It may be a prolonged meditation on the irrationality of death, the entire book. But 'The mystery of Love is greater than the mystery of Death,' as Oscar Wilde said, though I suspect he was talking romantically rather than biblically. Lear talks about mystery too, in that scene with Cordelia: 'we two will be God's spies, and take upon the mystery of things,' though they're both to die any second. 'Oh you are men of stone,' says Lear and 'if only my heart was stone,' says McCarthy. T. S. Eliot thinks that love is torture ('who then designed this torment? Love') and I think the cannibals are missing the point.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian rick wallach 12/23/2009
Jessica - thanks for that eloquent and thoughtful post, which is more than resonant enough in its own right. We're delighted to have you with us.

Only one caveat: I think that there are quite a few people on this board who do indeed read for the same things you do. Take some time to wander through the archives. You'll meet them.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian mighkedelic 12/23/2009
people read for language?

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian Lee Driver 12/23/2009
Yes indeed, welcome Jessica. In many senses and most days I feel pretty talked out on McCarthy, that we've beaten so many a dead horse round here, and washed back and forth over so many of these subjects like just another pogram sweeping one way or another through the Balkans, that there's no where new to go. And here comes you, new to this place and fresh from The Road, speaking with the voice of an already well developed thinker that arose somehow spontaneously, and mysteriously without our say so. Welcome.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian mighkedelic 12/23/2009
thank you lee i hadnt known. i should try that.

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian rick wallach 12/23/2009
Lee: yeah, we stopped Kenneth Lincoln dead in his tracks. How did she get through? Were you asleep at your post again?

Resonance of The Road in Blood Meridian jessica greenman 12/30/2009
I was chuffed when I read all these welcome messages, and had to write a few responses which I didn't post because my heating went down over Christmas and the cold affected my ability to think, and anyway I know Rick really wants to grind my bones to bake his bread underneath it all and will no doubt get some chance to do that at some point.

I have, over Christmas, aside from shivering, got The Twins all excited by the idea of The Road (but then again they were excited by the idea of The Stand by Stephen King, slightly less you'll be pleased to hear; I am good at singing up books: The Twins I don't think have ever read any aside from self-help ones) and was accused of being 'one of the cannibals' by some moron on my dateline, to whom I gave short shrift. Trouble is I've not been able to rescue my copy of The Road off Simon Downstairs for a re-read, nor have I been able to find Blood Meridian, because the books in my shelves are two deep (unintentional pun)and hidden. So I had to take Rick's advice and read back over a few posts and see what everyone thought about it - for a couple of days I just read pages of Road quotes, which sorted me as I like the seriousness, I really do enjoy it, frothy I am not; however, and however.

The Road is great and up there with very special pieces of prose that combine intensity with poetic skill and a form of desperate majesty and thank the good Lord it's been written at all, but it's not King Lear. It isn't, and King Lear is surely the great aim, no? In my view parents eat their children all day long and every day, or vice versa; the entire human race is involved in spiritual consumption or negligence to a level I find impossible to bear in any way, and the more literature that gets us down to a raw core of parsible elements the better. More like this, and only this, and every morning before breakfast. There's some post somewhere where everyone's crying and emotionally battered as a result of reading it - mugged I think was your word, Rick - well, I was more gratified than anything else. I drank that book in: yes, yes, yes, I said, slurping up the pages with grim fervour and no doubt rigour pitilesse as well, not to mention greed. For me it was vindication.'At last,' I said to myself. And now I'm stuck with Mary Gaitskill and Gunter Grass, spare me, till someone writes another one.

Well aside from me of course, because I am somewhat inevitably writing a novel myself (and not for the first time), to stem the tide of utter banality that engulfs this earth. I love the way McCarthy doesn't care if his novels ever get read; I'm a bit like that. All he cares about is a stack of white paper every morning and his love for his son. Still, at least he has one, which means someone wasn't too scared to have sex with him, sufficient enough to get the deed done, which mostly means more than once, and that involves conscious will. But women are rather less fearless than men when it comes to stuff like that. Aren't they.

Of course it's romantic fiction that needs pumping up, that's the real flaw in our current literary and emotional climate. McCarthy's squeezed the love in here, and palpably, but not erotically (I recognise Shakespeare couldn't handle that side of things either), so it's back to Plath really, though I just can't bear to go through all that over again, don't make me. Maybe some Art Deco nihilistic pact with the devil and sobbing mortification and a lot of crows flailing about, I'll see what I can do. You may have some suggestions about how to get the resonance of The Road into Modern Romantic Agony, which I happen to know hasn't been done yet, in fact the two are very much at odds, though it is possible - isn't it? And you also may have a reading list which would help me sorely, as, aside from Carrie (which I still consider a great book, though her mother was nothing on mine) recent modern fiction trembles in terror before me.


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