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Topic: McCarthy's Western Novels
Thread: Structure of Cities of the Plain
 Total messages for all days: 31

Structure of Cities of the Plain webmaster 2/20/2007
I'm making an attempt to rescue this thread, because I think Roger's comment an interesting one.

Originally Posted by: Roger Angle 2/19/2007

I am a writer, not a scholar as some of you are, and I wonder what you think about the structure of COTP.

I just finished re-reading it after several years, and I think it may be CMC's most clearly structured and in a way his most successful novel.

It certainly seemed richer and stronger to me this time through.

It has an obvious through-line -- JGC meeting and falling in love and trying to rescue Magdalena.

It has a central conflict -- JGC vs. the pimp Eduardo.
And it has one of McCarthy's strongest and most frequently recurring themes, that the human heart is unknowable and untamable.

As a tragedy, COTP reminds me of "Romeo and Juliet."

The structure of COTP seems clearer than "Blood Meridian," CMC's greatest book, I think. BM was based on Chamberlain's memoir, an episodic work, and BM seems to me episodic and repititous. I consider this its only flaw.

In an odd way, COTP seems to me the most original of CMC's novels. And I think it may have the best structure.

What do you all think? Thanks.

Structure of Cities of the Plain Clement 2/20/2007
Its bones may be good but I think it has the ugliest flesh hanging off of it of all of McCarthy's works. Yes, than includes NCFOM too. As you can see, I'm not much of a critic either.

Structure of Cities of the Plain blackhiller 2/20/2007
Marty,

Hey, good to see ya post--bin gone a long time, aintcha? (busy, I'm sure). Anyway, I'm with you to a large degree--I think it is a much-underrated book. That said, I still would, if pressed, only rank it middlin' in Mac's canon (the following not in order this time) after BM, TR, TC, Sut, and COG, which if my math is correct is smack dab in the middle (and yes, ahead of ATPH).

Structure of Cities of the Plain peterfranz 2/20/2007
It's some years since I've read COTP but I've always thought ATPH to be McCarthys best structured work. H is also his most conventional novel and those two things may be related I suppose. (A re-read may change that notion of course.) I accept the point about BM being repetitious but I find that to be mesmerising and, for me, one of the novels great strengths.

pf

Structure of Cities of the Plain rick wallach 2/21/2007
I think "leitmotifical" is more appropriate than "repetitious." Each recycling of a motif or a term - "They rode on" comes to mind - is like the sounding of a reamplified theme in a symphony. Nothing is ever repeated for the sake of repetition alone, but always carrying some new emphasis or serving to redirect our attent to (or sometimes away from) some other theme or motif. The more I work with this amazing novel, and I've been working with it steadily since 1992, the more intricate it reveals itself to be. Whereas I love COTP on its own terms, I think its simplicity of structure is more apparent than real and there's more going on there than many readers seem to think.

If anyone wants to consider repititiousness as one of the negative properties of BM, it may be only because hey haven't put COTP in the context of the trilogy as a whole: COTP repeats so many of the themes of the prior books (especially when you compare John Grady's penchant for disastrous romances - Alejandra and Magdalena track each other nicely, as do - ready for this one? - Alfonsa and Eduardo in their respective relationships to JGC's love objects). The knife fight in Saltillo prison is repeated in the knife fight with Eduardo (my kingdom for a serving tray!), and the horsemanship and husbandry expertise of JGC in COTP repeat John Grady's work with the horses on Alejandra's ranch. On and on.

It's a commonplace of fractal mathematics that number sets which seem coincidental only seem so because their regularity is a function of patterns occurring below or behind the X-Y axes, with the visible sets behaving only like the tips of icebergs. COTP is a bit like that; you won't see the entire, more elaborate systems of themes and images until you step back and consider the trilogy as a whole.

Structure of Cities of the Plain daveness 2/21/2007
Rick,
Your focus on BM's leitmotifical repetitions and recursive self-similarities calls to mind the nice little pun that appears somewhere in the novel (sorry, don't have the book handy right now) as Judge Holden is jotting in his notebook; if memory serves, the sentence begins, "He wrote on..." . I'll check my copy for the exact wording and location later.

Apologies for possibly derailing this thread...

Structure of Cities of the Plain peterfranz 2/21/2007
Well, yes to the posts above as well. But I was thinking less of the motivic nature of the writing (which is most certainly a McCarthy trait to be found throughout his work most recently in The Road) than the recycling of certain basic scenes and episodes. Obvious examples in the case of BM are the treatment of landscape and the sanguinary nature of the whole exercise. If we wish to use a musical analogy the effect is rather like having the (very simple) basic material presented in different keys as the work moves through its various stages. However, none of that is to deny the felicities of what we might now call the orchestration.

pf

Structure of Cities of the Plain jonglyn 2/21/2007
I've said it here before but COTP is my favorite McCarthy book and I can't pass up the opportunity to stick up for it.

Yes, and yes, to Romeo and Juliet. The star-crossed lovers, the feuds between the families vs the feuds between the countries America and Mexico. Billy can be seen as Mercutio, the ribald man's man who scoffs at love but "jests as scars that never felt a wound" although he doesn't die of course. The Nurse and the one-eyed criada. Both have the theme of "is this really true love" which the Alejandra past adds a wrinkle to like Rosaline does in R&J, and the themes that maybe these are just typical teenagers. The themes that Romeo and John Grady see beauty as light but Juliet and Magdalena see beauty as darkness. The blind maestro foiled against Friar Laurence.

McCarthy makes some obvious plot changes but these changes don't negate the Romeo and Juliet evocation but, instead, makes us think more about both stories' structures, themes, and language.

Was it Hemingway who said that every love story tries to be Romeo and Juliet?

Structure of Cities of the Plain mike zechel 2/21/2007
I think it's COTP's screenplay genealogy. It's got its blemishes but from the beginning up till where the romance takes over from the world of the ranch, it's near perfect storytelling; a stretch that reminds me of Goodfellas through the wedding scene. Scorsese told it all brilliantly through symbolic action. You could take out the voice over and the dialogue and it would still be told boldly.

Structure of Cities of the Plain sslucher 2/22/2007
Rick - Reading your post reminded me of 78 year old Billy's encounter with the old man under the highway. During the old man's telling of the dream he says that the narrative is the thing, that the events are interchangeable, or something like that. I'm paraphrasing, but it's obviously a commentary on what has gone on before, in ATPH, in TC, and even in BM (think of the way the ritual of the dream is described and what is taking place).

Structure of Cities of the Plain blackhiller 2/24/2007
I've been meaning to add that even the "comic book" knife fighting dialogue actually has its roots much deeper than pop culture: it's in the tradition of _The Iliad_ and many, many Westerns. . . .

Structure of Cities of the Plain John_Vanderheide 2/24/2007
Cremean-de-la-Cremean writes:

>>> I've been meaning to add that even the "comic book" knife fighting dialogue actually has its roots much deeper than pop culture: it's in the tradition of _The Iliad_ and many, many Westerns. . . .

Adding to this addition, I'd remind readers that the climax of the knife fight recapitulates two of the most famous allegories in Eurohistory. If anyone knows what these are, I will accept their answers in the form of a question. (The prize is my high praise.)

As for Roger Angle's original observation, I agree, although would suggest that Child of God also fulfills the requirements of an old fashioned story with with tightly executed beginning, middle and end.

Structure of Cities of the Plain blackhiller 2/25/2007
JVH,

It's cremean-dave-la-cremean. . . .

You're high praise would (at least should) indeed mean a lot to anyone, but I'm currently stumped.

Allegorically yours,
Hiller

Structure of Cities of the Plain Clement 2/25/2007
I want to say one of them is "What is The Faerie Queene?" But its been many years. That's all I got.

Structure of Cities of the Plain John_Vanderheide 2/25/2007
Clement (a systems analyst from Dublin, Georgia, whose hobbies include collecting pins from Hard Rock Cafes the world around), advances to Double Jeopardy... even though really more specifically the answer is FQ Book I, the double plot of which, by the by, is also parodied in Outer Dark.

And now a word from our sponsors, Poo-be-gone Toilet Paper. Poo-be-gone! Effective dingleberry relief since 1959.

Structure of Cities of the Plain Clement 2/25/2007
Oh Lordy, I'd rather empty septic tanks than be a systems analyst. I only been to two Hard Rock cafes, Toronto and Chicago - and that was because of girls.

I need to read me FQ again - er, Book I at least.

Structure of Cities of the Plain blackhiller 2/26/2007
Alex Vanderheide,

I was so sure they'd have to be some more obscure to us non-English allegories that I didn't try that one. Anyway, FQ would still have been a guess, not a definite. I'm so jealous of Clem.

So, now I'll go and little doubt embarrass myself indeed: "What is Pilgrim's Progress?"

Structure of Cities of the Plain John_Vanderheide 2/27/2007
Oh! Sorry, the answer we were looking for was "The Psychomachia of Prudentius." Both it and FQBI end with the skewering of a bad guy in the mouth/throat. But there'll be some nice parting gifts for you, including (pinky to lip, eyebrow raised, bald head gleaming) one million dollars (of monopoly money).

It is fun to think of the novels in terms of structure, though. OD has a beginning and a middle but it finishes up nowhere. TOK is kind of the same. Then there's Suttree. It's all middles. The beginning is a middle, the end is a middle, the middle is a middle. A nonmiddling middlebook.

Structure of Cities of the Plain Clement 2/27/2007
Well Mr. Van Trebek, there is no way in hell I would have gotten that one.

Structure of Cities of the Plain bob g. 2/27/2007
Well, as long as we're into snapping traps shut with sharp pointed things, there's that thing that Invisible Man hurls and sticks in the face of Ras (Raz?)the Destroyer. Talk about a bombast-stopper!

What was that blame thang anyway? Spearchuckerstick? Jacksonbowieblade? Ultrahonedfemurbone? Lancelotprostheticprong? Or what...zzzzzzzzz

Structure of Cities of the Plain blackhiller 2/28/2007
JVH,

Ah, so much for my reading comprehension and retainment: I read it as "the two most" referring to allegories, but indeed you said "two of the most." I'd never even heard of "Prudentia" to my recollection (great title, by the way, one I'd think I'd remember with that Psychomachia), but perhaps that's another indication of my educational holes despite (or because of) the degrees. . . .

Structure of Cities of the Plain Charley Beckwith 3/5/2007
I always read it as a vaguely homoerotic thing to do, too. An unsheathed knife has been a symbol for an unsheathed phallus forever, and JGC sticks his in that precious peacock Eduardo's throat, in one fell swoop sodomizing him and forever silencing his vicious eloquent tongue.

Structure of Cities of the Plain Queen Sago 3/6/2007
cer·vix [sur-viks] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural cer·vix·es, cer·vi·ces [ser-vahy-seez, sur-vuh-seez] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation. Anatomy.
1. the neck, esp. the back part.
2. any necklike part, esp. the constricted lower end of the uterus.
[Origin: 1375–1425; late ME < L cerv?x neck, nape, uterine cervix]

Structure of Cities of the Plain Glass 6/3/2009
Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, even thine altars, O LORD of hosts, my King, and my God. (Psalm 84:3 KJV)


To follow the thread of the leitmotifical, repeating cycles within Cities of the Plain, I would note the neat connection with the mud cones found in two separate, but similar, passages. Some excellent mirroring taking place between these, I think.

The first is found on p. 145 when John Grady Cole and Billy Parham ride up to Bell Springs so JGC can show Billy the abandoned "old adobe" he plans to fix up so that he and Magdalena will have a nice, clean place in which to live after they get married:

"The floor was of packed clay beaten and oiled and it was strewn with debris, old clothes and foodtins and curious small cones of mud that had formed from water percolating down through the mud roof and dripping through the latillas to stand about like the work of old-world termites." (my italics)

The termite reference is interesting and I'll comment on that in a bit.

The connecting passage falls on p. 280 where we find Billy and the dreamweaver nested in underneath the concrete highway overpass. Much like JGC studying the dilapidated old house 50 years earlier, we see Billy:

"He sat pondering the forms of the concrete overhead. The nests of the swallows clung in the high corners like colonies of small mud hornos inverted there."

A few thoughts I'd have on this are that termites are social insects and swallows are social birds. JGC is, in effect, hoping to build a nest for the family he hopes one day to love and raise in the old adobe. We all know how that turned out, but his heart was in the right place, his intentions good. Termite mounds amazingly complex structures. They contain tunnels, which nicely connects to the concrete structure where we find the homeless Billy in the Epilogue. Colonies. Getting along and working together. Sharing a couple of crackers. Decay and doomed enterprises. Shelter tubes.

Swallows, mentioned in the Epilogue passage, are symbolically ripe as this bird is known for its long journeys and migrations, much like Billy and the many miles he's come in his 78 years. Swallows have a close relationship to humans and often build their nests under man-made objects.

The two passages are set in springtime and the swallow has long been a symbol of spring or an early sign of summer's approach. I assume the "old adobe" passage from earlier in the book is takes place in the spring because JGC and Billy tend and mend the "new calves on the ground."

John Grady's movements as he "passed on through" the old house in the sunlight somewhat prefigure the passage of trucks and their disappearing and reappearing shadows at the concrete structure 50 years later.

A couple final notes. I found it interesting how McCarthy described the formation of the "curious small cones" at the old house as the water percolated down through the mud roof. A swallow would not build a nest in such a place as water is the enemy to their mud nests and water always wins.

Last, the descriptions by McCarthy of those mud cones and the Interstate structure with its spiral curves very much put me in mind of the incredible painting The 'Little' Tower of Babel by Pieter Bruegel the Elder. Concentric rings, spirals, mounds and cones.

"curving away, clustered and rising without capital or pediment like the ruins of some older order standing in the dusk." (Cities 289)







Peter

Structure of Cities of the Plain Glass 3/8/2010
Out in the west Texas town of El Paso, I fell in love with a Mexican girl..." (El Paso by Marty Robbins)

John Grady drank one whiskey neat at the Kentucky Club and paid and went out and nodded to the cabman standing at the corner. They got in and the cabdriver turned and looked at him.

Where are you going my friend?
The White Lake.
(Cities of the Plain 246, my bold)

A couple of notes on this historic bar. Established in 1920, the Kentucky Club is located on Juarez Avenue in Juarez, Mexico. Local folklore maintains that Bob Dylan drank here while penning Tom Thumb's Blues and also Jack Kerouac during his visit to Juarez, as documented in On the Road. (1)

Following this thread somehow made me think of Marty Robbins and his song El Paso which, like its sequels San Angelo and Feleena (from El Paso), has some obvious parallels with John Grady and his doomed pursuit of Magdalena in COTP.

I found it interesting, for instance, that the suitor in San Angelo traveled from the border to be with his love in San Angelo and was killed in that town, John Grady's birthplace:

I must be with her I can't stay away
Nights spent without her are lonely and so are the days
If it means death then I'll have to chance it
Only a few moments more and she'll be in my arms


John Grady in The Trilogy begins his journey in San Angelo and dies on the border.

There are some neat correspondences in Robbins' Feleena (from El Paso) that ring true with Cities. Been awhile since I've read it in its entirety, but this verse from Robbins reminds me of when John Grady meets Magdalena at White Lake:

A year passed and maybe more and then through the swingin' doors
Came a young cowboy so tall and so handsomely dressed
This one was new in town, hadn't been seen around
He was so different, he wasn't like all of the rest;
Feleena danced close to him, then threw a rose to him
Quickly he walked to her table and there he sat down
.

1. Jualking to Juárez by Rich Wright

Peter

Structure of Cities of the Plain rick wallach 3/8/2010
Wow, Marty Robbins? And here I always thought that John Barlow wrote that tune.

Ah well.

I always figured her name was spelled "Felina." When you think about it, that makes more sense. No matter. "Felina" she will always be.

Structure of Cities of the Plain Glass 3/8/2010
Rightly sung all songs are one, or maybe not. El Paso was one of a handful of "Bob" songs I liked hearing in concert. Saw him sing it at my first show in 1981. Sometimes I wonder if that kind of thing (El Paso, Bob Dylan, music) is more McCarthy's cup of tea than say Shakespeare. "Felina" it is.

Structure of Cities of the Plain rummy 3/9/2010

Structure of Cities of the Plain rummy 3/9/2010

Structure of Cities of the Plain rummy 3/9/2010
Interesting Peter,
The great singer/songwriter and El Paso native, Tom Russell, does a great version of "El Paso" on his "Cowboys, Indians, Horses, Dogs" album... Turns out that Rosa's Cantina is in Juarez (not EP) and is still open.
From Russell's blog:
"I was driving across the desert the other day with the great filmmaker Eric Temple; scouting locations for our film on the West: "California Bloodlines." We'd decided to take savage left turn, thematically, and consider raw, authentic Cowboy origins: Mexico; Charreadas and Charros; Spain on back to the Moors. The Violence in Juarez. Digging deeper into the bloodlines. The old west is chillingly alive on the border. The history rock and rolled through here; the guns are smoking. Why not include that in this film? The Spanish crossed the river just up the road. Rosas's Cantina was still open, where Marty Robbins wrote "El Paso." Cowboy as all hell."
Tom at Rosa's

RE: The Kentucky Club
I've been to the Kentucky Club several times, and indeed, the place has quite a history. Mr. Pancho, who established the club loved horse racing and the Kentucky Derby, which he attended every year. He named his club after the derby. There is a beautiful mahogany bar and backbar in the club. The bar was originally in a club on Bourbon Street, but Mr Pancho saw it and had to have it. He bought the bar and had it dismantled and shipped to Juarez. Other famous KC patrons: John Wayne, Frank Sinatra, Marilyn Monroe, Hemingway.... I have put together a powerpoint presentation of Border Trilogy sites that I have visited. One of the slides on the presentation is a picture of the KC. I could e-mail you a copy if interested....

Structure of Cities of the Plain Glass 3/10/2010
Rummy: This is really good information, and I'd definitely love to see those slides. Thanks for the offer. I was wondering how the bar got its name. Sounds like a great place. It's probably just me, but I find that connection to horses quite tantalizing indeed relative to John Grady Cole. Works nicely. I like that a lot. The Tom Russell information/Rosa's Cantina got me too because I'd been looking at some of his stuff while working up my first post with the El Paso songs, but didn't get very far into that before I got pulled away. There is a terrific article of his that I started reading and didn't get finished. I'll link it here later when I find it again. Don't think I know Russell but plan to read more about him when I get the chance. Thanks, Rummy.


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